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What was done in years past and whether people just need to tighten their belt is irrelevant.
The question is whether there is a societal benefit for people to have children and, if so, provide government financial support.
There is a declining birthrate and it will impact future supply of workers and sustainability of social security, medicare and other programs. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v66n4/v66n4p37.html
More married couples are foregoing having children due to the expense of childcare. My daughter knows several couples who told her this and they are living a fairly modest lifestyle. They have a right to make that decision without judgment on their lifestyle choices, and discretionary expenses. We should not expect relatives to take on childcaring duties.
When both parents work, they are paying taxes including social security taxes. Additionally, daycare workers caring for children pay taxes including social security taxes. Many working parents get contributions to 401(k) plans, thus better providing for a financially secure retirement and less reliance on future government benefits.
Other countries highly subsidize childcare so it attracts high quality providers. I believe subsidized childcare is necessary.
Last edited by Maddie104; 09-28-2023 at 04:39 PM..
This is not always 100% true. In many cases, you have two exhausted individuals, trying to both do well at work and contribute at home and often failing in both tasks. They very often are at risk of being laid off and losing their jobs.
On the other hand, a single earner presumably has time and energy to do their work well, to be motivated, well rested, etc. So very often the risk for one well rested, stress free person to lose their job are about is similar to the two stressed out, exhausted parents trying to work...
Most parents get up, go to work, and do fairly well. I'm sure you can find cases of some people failing due to burnout or whatever, but that's relatively uncommon.
You're also assuming that they aren't losing jobs through no fault of their own. It can happen, and sometimes, you might not find another quickly. If you live in a small town like I do, there might not be anything for you locally. It just raises risk a lot IMO.
What was done in years past and whether people just need to tighten their belt is irrelevant.
The question is whether there is a societal benefit for people to have children and, if so, provide government financial support.
There is a declining birthrate and it will impact future supply of workers and sustainability of social security, medicare and other programs. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v66n4/v66n4p37.html
More married couples are foregoing having children due to the expense of childcare. My daughter knows several couples who told her this and they are living a fairly modest lifestyle. They have a right to make that decision without judgment on their lifestyle choices, and discretionary expenses. We should not expect relatives to take on childcaring duties.
When both parents work, they are paying taxes including social security taxes. Additionally, daycare workers caring for children pay taxes including social security taxes. Many working parents get contributions to 401(k) plans, thus better providing for a financially secure retirement and less reliance on future government benefits.
Other countries highly subsidize childcare so it attracts high quality providers. I believe subsidized childcare is necessary.
To add to this, a LOT of people realize their relatives are not fit to care for their kids.
I work with people who pay for childcare because their relatives are too dysfunctional to be allowed around small kids. It's a crappy truth of modern life.
It is not a requirement to have a two-income household. Why are people perpetuating this lie? Make your budget and live within in. It’s not rocket science. We have six kids and we homeschool and I have brought in nothing or peanuts for a decade plus at this point, and my husband makes a middle class income.
The answer to the child care problem is for more moms (or dads, I guess) to stay home and for the family to not worry about the Joneses and/or move to a lower cost of living area.
Another answer is for people to look at home-based daycares or family members to watch kids while they work. These are cheaper than any other option and let’s face it, the whole pushing of school onto kids who are not ready for it is unnecessary so these “early learning centers” that cost crazy amounts are not necessary like people think. Outcomes are no better in the long run and kids start evening out in mid to late elementary school.
Lastly, not having kids out of wedlock would help. Single moms have to have child care and this is the population I truly do feel for, but this was a choice they made when they proceeded with certain behaviors that carry that risk…. The child is not to blame, though.
Yep. Hard to get spots at quality daycares and even harder to pay for them. My daughter and SIL live in a high COL place. 2 kids cost them right under the 2023 average US household annual income. Yes, they are fortunate they can afford it, but that money could be going into college or retirement savings. They’re giddy with the thought of their oldest going to kindergarten next year and being able to reduce their daycare cost significantly.
And people wonder why families are smaller these days!
The large families from decades past didn’t have women in the workforce, by and large. This has been a conscious choice due to feminism and the push for “equality.” Now the kids are the losers in the situation.
I live in what used to be a low cost area that is pushing medium cost now. Professional jobs are tough to come by, and what is here tends to pay a lot less, even adjusted for COL, than a similar job in a bigger metro like Charlotte or Raleigh.
My girlfriend makes about $85k working as a buyer for a manufacturing company in North Carolina. She'd struggle to make $50k locally here in TN, especially since she has only an associate's degree. The cost of living is somewhat more where she is, but not to the tune of the pay difference.
Even if you do get a professional job, if that job vaporizes, you're likely having to move, unless you can find something remote.
The median household income here is only between $40k-$50k, depending on the city. Even here, that isn't a lot of money, especially if you have kids. I wouldn't feel comfortable raising kids on my mid $80k salary.
Why? Perhaps your personal expense as they exist now are too much. People pretend no sacrifice is needed with kids and it’s just adding a small human to the existing lifestyle. Nothing could be further from the truth.
People seem to think that a single income home only means sacrificing on vacations or a large house. What it really means for many families is sacrificing on home ownership period (and related housing insecurity with rent), fully funded retirement/college savings, and medical care in the best of situations - not to mention the opportunity cost of one parent losing career momentum and years of any kind of retirement savings/matching. In the worst of situations, it can mean not being able to afford food or clothing. My partner and I both grew up in single earner households and for that reason would never, ever put our kids through it short of one of those dream scenarios making 6 figures in a small town. That's just not reality for our careers.
I'm very concerned about this problem - daycare is expensive enough as it is where I live ($3000+ for bare minimum infant care) and hard to find (year long waitlists). Grandparents still work or don't live nearby, and there aren't many stay-at-home parents in neighborhoods anymore to split childcare with. Lots of people in my life are scrambling right now to find nanny-shares because they're nervous about maintaining a spot in their child's daycare. With 2 bedroom rents at 3-4K in the burbs and mortgages even more than that for a small starter home, being forced to drop out of the workforce due to lack of daycare spots is absolutely devastating.
My mortgage is only slightly higher than the rents we had been paying, and that’s bc our property taxes have been going up - it’s very likely our rents would have been going up, too. So let’s not pretend that home ownership is impossible with kids. That’s ludicrous.
Who needs college savings when scholarships and dual enrollment exist? A kid not making it in high school probably won’t make it in college, either, so if their grades are such that no scholarships work out, maybe that’s a sign….
Medical costs are out of reach or difficult for an extraordinary number of people, kids or not. Another moot point.
Why do both parents need “career momentum”?
Your second paragraph speaks to an issue that is self perpetuating. Don’t live in that area if this is the reality and you’re unhappy with it.
What was done in years past and whether people just need to tighten their belt is irrelevant.
The question is whether there is a societal benefit for people to have children and, if so, provide government financial support.
There is a declining birthrate and it will impact future supply of workers and sustainability of social security, medicare and other programs. https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v66n4/v66n4p37.html
More married couples are foregoing having children due to the expense of childcare. My daughter knows several couples who told her this and they are living a fairly modest lifestyle. They have a right to make that decision without judgment on their lifestyle choices, and discretionary expenses. We should not expect relatives to take on childcaring duties.
When both parents work, they are paying taxes including social security taxes. Additionally, daycare workers caring for children pay taxes including social security taxes. Many working parents get contributions to 401(k) plans, thus better providing for a financially secure retirement and less reliance on future government benefits.
Other countries highly subsidize childcare so it attracts high quality providers. I believe subsidized childcare is necessary.
The societal benefit ultimately is to not raise degenerates who don’t contribute to society. Having another drone worker to pay into the system while outsourcing the raising of children to strangers is not ideal.
The large families from decades past didn’t have women in the workforce, by and large. This has been a conscious choice due to feminism and the push for “equality.” Now the kids are the losers in the situation.
How are they losers? The reality is that there are many fields where women excel, just like there are many fields where men excel. This idea that a woman should stay home just because she is the one who gives birth is ridiculous. We are no longer in a society where women tend to be pregnant for most of their working years.
Unfortunately, most couples aren’t in a situation where they have flexible work schedules that allow one spouse to work first shift and one to work second or third.
I do know people who did that and it worked out well for them, but the ideal would be for government to offer some sort of subsidized leave for at least one parent during the early years. Many countries don’t just offered paid maternity leave, but also paid parental leave at some level for a year or even more. It’s more like a worker’s comp scheme where the parent who stays home makes a percentage of the salary for up to 3 years, but that certainly makes staying home more doable than it would be having one person stay home.
The situation we are in right now is that it is far more typical for families to have parents with comparable incomes or even have a wife who is making more money early on. For example, I have a friend who had twins and they were not able to quit because she and her husband were about at the same salary at that time. She also had a pension, so quitting might lose access to that.
How are they losers? The reality is that there are many fields where women excel, just like there are many fields where men excel. This idea that a woman should stay home just because she is the one who gives birth is ridiculous. We are no longer in a society where women tend to be pregnant for most of their working years.
Unfortunately, most couples aren’t in a situation where they have flexible work schedules that allow one spouse to work first shift and one to work second or third.
I do know people who did that and it worked out well for them, but the ideal would be for government to offer some sort of subsidized leave for at least one parent during the early years. Many countries don’t just offered paid maternity leave, but also paid parental leave at some level for a year or even more. It’s more like a worker’s comp scheme where the parent who stays home makes a percentage of the salary for up to 3 years, but that certainly makes staying home more doable than it would be having one person stay home.
The situation we are in right now is that it is far more typical for families to have parents with comparable incomes or even have a wife who is making more money early on. For example, I have a friend who had twins and they were not able to quit because she and her husband were about at the same salary at that time. She also had a pension, so quitting might lose access to that.
They are losing out on having their parents raise them. They are being raised by strangers who change depending on their age.
Totally disagree with govt subsidizing all of it. There needs to be an income threshold as there is currently.
I guess “most couples” don’t want to figure it out but instead ship their kids off to avoid raising them themselves. That’s what it boils down to. Many moms work only to pay for the daycare and they rejoice when public school is available so they don’t have to be stuck with their kid and/or pay for the strangers any longer.
ETA the women don’t stay home simply as a matter of the biology of pregnancy. They are hardwired to do the work of raising children in every way possible. Men simply were not.
Last edited by andrea3821; 09-29-2023 at 08:58 AM..
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