Baby Veronica case to be heard by US Supreme Court (options, biological)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I raised children who were not my own for most of their lives. If their mother could have come back for them, I would have given them to her. It would be in their best interest to be with their mom.
I think the best interests of the child would have been best served by being reunited with her father at 4 months old. Her adoptive parents made that choice.
And as for not being cherokee, sheena said there was no "Native american" (not an acceptable term btw) in her life. Well according to the birth mother and the father's attorney he was on deployment and wanted and expected to marry the mother. He thought he was signing custody over to his ex fiancee until he got back and they could work things out.
As an adoptive parent, could you actual say to your daughter, your birth mother wanted you back, she felt a mistake had been made when you were an infant but we decided you were "ours" and kept you? I am sure you are a loving parent, and could you really tell your daughter, whom you love that your kept her away from birth parents who WANTED her and FOUGHT for her?
Maybe you can, I cannot imagine having to tell an adoptee of any age that.
Yes I could tell my daughter that, with ease. Thank God I will never have to. When someone signs a contract, and they are 21 years or older, tough luck! Are parents who adopt their children supposed to wait a month, two months, or five years, waiting in fear that their children could be taken away?
We adopted from Korea just to protect ourselves and our daughter from such an event.
All of you continue to assume that our daughter has a bond or a connection with a woman she never met. My wife and I have come to believe that that the adoptees on this forum feel a connection to their birth families. We will respect that.
Our daughter is a very opinionated young woman and she is totally on the side of the family that adopted the little girl. She feels no connection. We will call them adoptees too. But please call "parents", not adopters.
I could easily say to her with pride, "Honey a few moths after you came home the lady who gave birth to you wanted you back and we fought and won because we loved you the minute we saw you."
But I'm not about to tell you how to feel. If you would not do anything to keep your children you are just a different parent from us. Do as you like but don't berate me because I don't agree with you.
We need to learn to respect each others opinions. I have said some things out of anger here that I regret. I have no group that I am a member of or an agenda. As a parent with two, soon to be three or four children, one so far by adoption, I get very upset when people tell me how I am supposed to feel.
My agenda in being on this board was to talk about adoption and adoption related issues. We want children to have good homes and parents to be able to adopt children with out fear of them being taken away. (Your cause is different.) I can't think of anything worse. We loved our son and our daughter instantly, and I don't care if it was two weeks after either one of them came home I'd feel the same way.
Again Sheena12 never said that the man was not a Cherokee Indian. She said she was in favor of The Indian Child Protection Act. About ten years ago, she took a graduate course in Native American Literature and there had been a discussion about returning to the term "Indian" from "Native American".
We both think that the child was not removed from a Cherokee home and the Indian Child Welfare Act does not apply here. ( don't bother correcting me about the name of the Act, OK?)
Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 01-06-2013 at 10:14 AM..
But I'm not about to tell you how to feel. If you would not do anything to keep your children you are just a different parent from us. Do as you like but don't berate me because I don't agree with you.
We need to learn to respect each others opinions. I have said some things out of anger here that I regret. I have no group that I am a member of or an agenda. As a parent with two, soon to be three or four children, one so far by adoption, I get very upset when people tell me how I am supposed to feel.
My agenda in being on this board was to talk about adoption and adoption related issues. We want children to have good homes and parents to be able to adopt children with out fear of them being taken away. (Your cause is different.) I can't think of anything worse. We loved our son and our daughter instantly, and I don't care if it was two weeks after either one of them came home I'd feel the same way.
Well said Warren Zee. I think that it is easy to make statements like "I would give them back to the mother if she asked." I think that in ikb's case, she raised siblings or family members? A bit different from a more typical adoption scenario. If I was helping a family member or close friend, of course I would "give" them back if the family member/friend was back to being capable of parenting. That is what families/friends do for one another. If the the biological parents of my children knocked at our door asking for them back, I would probably be calling the police. No way in hell would I be caving in with the attitude of, "Here you go, they should be with their mom."
I find it sad in this case that the biological mother had an open adoption with the adoptive parents and they seemed to be at a comfortable state in their lives. Along comes a biological father who contributed a squirt of liquid into the process, who initially didn't step up to the plate, but because he is the father, the court will probably rule in his favor. There seems to be a lot of he said/she said in this case. It will be interesting to sort fact from fiction. Now this child now doesn't even see the biological mother or her siblings. So much for preserving the family unit. I
After reading cases like this, it does make me really happy that we pursued an international adoption.
And I also agree with you about this whole adoption board. So much for getting support eh? It is easier to just fight and nitpick one another's posts. Good fun on a cold January morning!!!
And I also agree with you about this whole adoption board. So much for getting support eh? It is easier to just fight and nitpick one another's posts. Good fun on a cold January morning!!!
Unfortunately, the nitpicking isn't just coming from one direction. There are strong opinions on both (all) sides of the adoption issue, and whether or not we agree with other members, they're allowed to have and share their points of view.
All of you continue to assume that our daughter has a bond or a connection with a woman she never met.
I have yet to see anyone assume such a thing. All people have ever said is that your daughter might, at some point, feel a need to search out her roots. That feeling often arises later in life, especially when faced with major life changes -- marriage, becoming a parent, etc. The hope is that you will be open to, and supportive of, those feelings SHOULD they arise.
Unfortunately, the nitpicking isn't just coming from one direction. There are strong opinions on both (all) sides of the adoption issue, and whether or not we agree with other members, they're allowed to have and share their points of view.
Yeah, I know Dark. Was venting a bit.
Still wished that the board owner made a seperate adoptee support group forum that wasn't under the general parenting topic. I probably wouldn't comment since I'm not an adoptee. When everything is mixed into just one subtopic area, things can get very controvesial. But we've chatted about this before and it won't happen.
In cases were there is no marriage or common law type marriage between the conception-birth parents, I think the birth mother should be given final say.
In this case, the child is not with her birth mother, the woman who carried her for 9 months and chose adoption for her. She's going to be raised in an adoptive home, with an adoptive mother regardless. And a father who gave her up for adoption but is apparently mentally slow and didn't know what he was signing. Not very good.
Well said Warren Zee. I think that it is easy to make statements like "I would give them back to the mother if she asked." I think that in ikb's case, she raised siblings or family members? A bit different from a more typical adoption scenario. If I was helping a family member or close friend, of course I would "give" them back if the family member/friend was back to being capable of parenting. That is what families/friends do for one another. If the the biological parents of my children knocked at our door asking for them back, I would probably be calling the police. No way in hell would I be caving in with the attitude of, "Here you go, they should be with their mom."
So if I am raising children who are not my biological children I am just "helping a family member", but if an AP is raising a child who isn't biologically theirs they are "parenting". Why?
My sister was a toddler when my father died. She has lived with me for over 15 years. And even if she does not call me "mom" she knows who raised her. I do not love her any less than I love my daughter who btw, is the exact same age as my littlest sister.
See the only difference between what I did, and what the APs do is a sense of OWNERSHIP. I would have given my siblings back to their parents, not because I love them less than any AP here, but because it would be best for them.
And yes, I know this for a fact. Not something we normally bandy about in my family but my stepmother did not die in the accident, she was badly injured and something inside her broke. So even when she was physically better she was incapable of parenting. When my sister was 5 (and my other siblings older) she came back and wanted to "try". It didn't work out and after 3 months they were back home. Less than 3 months after that my stepmom died. But if she hadn't, and wanted to "try" again, I would have allowed that as well, because their wanting of their mother was more important than my missing them.
Quote:
I find it sad in this case that the biological mother had an open adoption with the adoptive parents and they seemed to be at a comfortable state in their lives. Along comes a biological father who contributed a squirt of liquid into the process, who initially didn't step up to the plate, but because he is the father, the court will probably rule in his favor. There seems to be a lot of he said/she said in this case. It will be interesting to sort fact from fiction. Now this child now doesn't even see the biological mother or her siblings. So much for preserving the family unit.
I love how some people in this thread are down playing this man's role even more than the birthmother is. In her own words he wanted to marry her and raise the child, she was the one who cut off contact at 7 months, and the only thing that is in question is whether or not he pursued it after that. The idea that he signed away his rights to avoid child support payment is entirely fiction and not supported by anything from the birthmother.
Quote:
After reading cases like this, it does make me really happy that we pursued an international adoption.
And I also agree with you about this whole adoption board. So much for getting support eh? It is easier to just fight and nitpick one another's posts. Good fun on a cold January morning!!!
You seem to think that this is supposed to be an adoptive parent support board. I am not sure why you think that is. It doesn't state it anywhere.
as emotionally difficult for an adoptive parent to relinquish a child the birth parent has rights up to a certain point. in a lot of these disputed cases the adoptive parents find out very early after they have custody that the bio parent wants their child. the AP do drag the case through court, which leaves the child in their home for sometime years. which when they do end up having to relinquish the child it is not only difficult for them but the child even more so. in this case at the 3 month mark when the father wanted his child back they should have relinquished at that time. I had to give up a baby after having him for 3 years it wasn't easy on any of us but it was the right thing to do.
So if I am raising children who are not my biological children I am just "helping a family member", but if an AP is raising a child who isn't biologically theirs they are "parenting". Why?
My sister was a toddler when my father died. She has lived with me for over 15 years. And even if she does not call me "mom" she knows who raised her. I do not love her any less than I love my daughter who btw, is the exact same age as my littlest sister.
See the only difference between what I did, and what the APs do is a sense of OWNERSHIP. I would have given my siblings back to their parents, not because I love them less than any AP here, but because it would be best for them.
And yes, I know this for a fact. Not something we normally bandy about in my family but my stepmother did not die in the accident, she was badly injured and something inside her broke. So even when she was physically better she was incapable of parenting. When my sister was 5 (and my other siblings older) she came back and wanted to "try". It didn't work out and after 3 months they were back home. Less than 3 months after that my stepmom died. But if she hadn't, and wanted to "try" again, I would have allowed that as well, because their wanting of their mother was more important than my missing them.
No, I think that you are making broad statements that may not fit every case. Your case is a bit different. I applaud you for raising your little sister but remember, you are doing with within your family unit. That is what families do--help one another out. I would do the same thing in your situation if I had siblings within my family or a family member that needed a home.
What I don't agree with is going through a lengthy adoption process to adopt a child, raise that child, and then be so willing to relinquish that child if that biological parent would come to the door and asked for the child back. I suspect that you wouldn't either. If I wanted my home to be a transient place for a child, then I would be a foster parent. Sometimes the child stays a lengthy amount of time, sometimes short. There is no expectation that the child will be a permanant part of the family. Although I would be open to fostering in the future, that is not what we wanted at the time and thus chose an international adoption.
When my husband and I went into adoption, there was an expection on our part that the children would be permanant parts of our lives. If we were asked to relinquish, I can assure you that we would fight it in the courts. So yes there is a sense of permanancy on our part. You call it "ownership." Suppose we can disagree on this.
Again, I know that we disagree on possibly 99% of the topics on this board. But I give you 2 thumbs up on what you did for your family. I think that shows a generous heart and I respect you for doing what you did.
No, I think that you are making broad statements that may not fit every case. Your case is a bit different. I applaud you for raising your little sister but remember, you are doing with within your family unit. That is what families do--help one another out. I would do the same thing in your situation if I had siblings within my family or a family member that needed a home.
What I don't agree with is going through a lengthy adoption process to adopt a child, raise that child, and then be so willing to relinquish that child if that biological parent would come to the door and asked for the child back. I suspect that you wouldn't either. If I wanted my home to be a transient place for a child, then I would be a foster parent. Sometimes the child stays a lengthy amount of time, sometimes short. There is no expectation that the child will be a permanant part of the family. Although I would be open to fostering in the future, that is not what we wanted at the time and thus chose an international adoption.
When my husband and I went into adoption, there was an expection on our part that the children would be permanant parts of our lives. If we were asked to relinquish, I can assure you that we would fight it in the courts. So yes there is a sense of permanancy on our part. You call it "ownership." Suppose we can disagree on this.
Again, I know that we disagree on possibly 99% of the topics on this board. But I give you 2 thumbs up on what you did for your family. I think that shows a generous heart and I respect you for doing what you did.
I would have to concur with Linmora. Your case is not exactly an adoption case. It is more of a family helping out case. I have done this twice. My youngest brother is 15 years my junior and I raised him from the time he was 12. We had a wicked step mother and my dad was, and remains oblivious.
Threee of one of my sisters children have lived with me at different times. She is an extreemly fertile woman without a maternal bone in her body. When she divorced her husband she went crazy cougar - seriously, sold her 4 bedroom house and bought a 2 bedroom condo in an amenity filled gated community. The thing was, she had 4 kids. Three boys and a girl. She purposely bought a 2 bedroom so that there would be no place for her daughter to sleep. The threw the 15 and 16 year old boys out multiple times for things like leaving crumbs on the counter, left their X Box out and it was "unsightly", stuff like this.
With my brother, my nephews and niece, my wish was always that my sister would get her priorities in order, buy Christmas presents for her kids and quit the tummy tuck, Botox flying to Vegas with the man du jour, but that never happened.
All good and functional parents do look upon their children as a discrete and distinct part of our family. It's not at all about ownership or control. It is about the balance of love and boundaries and establishing a family of one's own.
As opposed to extended family who we naturally help if we can.
I have one child by birth, and one child by adoption. We are adopting more children because now that my kids are in their teens I am less concerned about the effect of older children who could have issues on my family.
But the point is, that when I brought my son home it was for good. He was in our family. When our daughter arrived from Korea, it was the same feeling.
NO! I would not surrender my children to strangers without attempting to help them to stay where they are thriving and doing well!
And really, is being Indian more important than being ripped out of ones home? Why does blood trump everything?
For me it does not and that man had no business popping in out of no where to try to take a little girl who he at first did not even want to support.
Handing over your children to a person that they do not know is never in the best interest of the child. Call me old fashioned or a feminist, but a child is born to a woman not a man. If the two are not married or in a relationship any longer, it should be up to her. She should have a lot more say in the adoption plan, if there is to be one, than an ex boyfriend who did not want to support his kid after his fiancee dumped him.
It is also a complete misuse of the spirit and purpose of the Indian Child Welfare Act. Yes she has some Indian heritage. I am sure that her parents would be happy to honor that, but the fact is, this child was never ripped off the rez from a loving Cherokee family. She was part Cherokee, yes. But this is NOT the scenario that the ICWA was meant to address. Not even close.
Last edited by sheena12; 01-06-2013 at 05:57 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
