Generally speaking against majority of adoptions (kids, birth mother, parents, certificate)

[joef279]

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

This mentality is part of the reason so many adoptees and others are generally not in favor of adoption because of the mindset that adoptees should be grateful they were adopted...

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

Adoptive parents often look to adopt an infant who has similar physical traits (not always) in order to present to society a child others will assume is "theirs" and also so they can feel the child is theirs biologically.

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

a significant number or I would say majority of them don't understand on a deeper level of what their child has experienced and will their entire life. For the most part adoptive parents wish to see their adopted children or try to pretend they are their "own"-- hence why so many adoptive parents request bio parents with similar heritage and coloring.

Can you cite any credible research to support these claims? Nothing wrong with that being your personal experience or opinion. The frequent use of terms like "so many," "most," and "majority" imply you have more than opinion to support such statements. I think your claims quoted above are WAY off the mark, but would still be very interested in reading any legitimate studies to the contrary. I would be especially interested in seeing the science to justify the motives you are ascribing to adoptive parents.

[WeHa]

I think you're putting too much stock into how someone becomes a parent. Anyone can screw around and make a kid and DNA sure as heck doesn't make someone a parent. At the end of the day what should matter is if the child is being raised in a stable healthy loving home sometimes that's with biological parents or adopted parents or step parents or your aunt or your grandma or whoever. Unfortunately there are millions of children who don't grow up in a good home but simply living with your biological parents does not guarantee a good childhood.

[mondayafternoons]

".....flesh of my flesh...."

[mondayafternoons]

In answer to your question yes it's true that my own experience, that of my adopted sibling ( in sharp contrast to our one sibling who is bio) along with a couple adopted people I knew growing up were all similar in that regard. My friend "Jenny" went to my school. Oh first let me back up to say I grew up in a semi affluent neighborhood where there was a higher percentage of parents who had adopted ( as I stated earlier the social workers who conducted the adoption evaluations mainly had an eye out for the outward appearance of things such as nice home, hey nice big backyard and great school district, adoptive parents same religion as birth family bonus points, score etc)

My friend Jenny lived up the street. I went to her house on a fairly frequent basis. Her parents were very kind, albeit overly protective. They were older and apparently had not been able to have children until they adopted her, they were Jewish and so in fact was Jenny as she told me "I'm really Jewish the same as my parents"... she also had same coloring as her adoptive parents. Whenever I would play with her or spend the night, I noticed how doting her mother was, to point of being overprotective and felt like there was a good deal of insecurity or fear based feelings in how she would kind of hover, make us large meals and lovingly insist we finish it, and if we played in the backyard or front yard even at ten years old, her mom or dad would come outside to stand there and watch us like a hawk. Obviously this wasn't a "study" or official research, but a firsthand experience that I did notice the difference in how her parents acted and that feeling of being almost treated like china compared to my other friends who weren't adopted.

A friend of mine in high school "Cheryl" told me that she wanted to find her birth mom but felt like from how her parents were they would be hurt or angry and so she felt this burden she had to shield them and so had to put off until years later her search and subsequent contact she made, all kept a secret from her adoptive parents.

I know however that there is official research and data that correlates to the statement that adoption is a primary wound or trauma. There's tons of stuff out there on this and frankly not to sound sarcastic but honestly it seems like as night follows day, it would be just common sense for one to easily understand that in order for a child to be adopted, he first had to lose his parents, and the birth parents/ family lost their child-- not much of a leap to put the two together. I am going to spend some time when I can notating studies and the authors etc to later post here however for now I will mention the American Academy of Pediatrics article on "Assume adoption is a Trauma" article. I scribbled down a couple excerpts from other studies. There was noted that adoptive parents and the adoption industry who have a clear vested interest in adoptions being available do not like the promotion of the stance on adoption as trauma. // A higher percentage of adoptees versus "bio" kids have learning disabilities and or mental health issues. // The adoptive parents who worked so hard to be able to adopt have a difficult time being able to see that adoption is a trauma// Adoptive parents issues of resentment and hostility towards their adopted child(ren) stemming in large part from the origins of why they needed to adopt in the first place-- infertility and its resulting struggle and pain and eventual coming to terms with the loss of the hoped for child they weren't able to have...

[bus man]

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

My friend Jenny lived up the street. I went to her house on a fairly frequent basis. Her parents were very kind, albeit overly protective. They were older and apparently had not been able to have children until they adopted her, they were Jewish and so in fact was Jenny as she told me "I'm really Jewish the same as my parents"... she also had same coloring as her adoptive parents. Whenever I would play with her or spend the night, I noticed how doting her mother was, to point of being overprotective and felt like there was a good deal of insecurity or fear based feelings in how she would kind of hover, make us large meals and lovingly insist we finish it, and if we played in the backyard or front yard even at ten years old, her mom or dad would come outside to stand there and watch us like a hawk. Obviously this wasn't a "study" or official research, but a firsthand experience that I did notice the difference in how her parents acted and that feeling of being almost treated like china compared to my other friends who weren't adopted.

So how did Jenny's parents behave when other, non-adopted kids were playing with their daughter? Did they overfeed them and watch them like a hawk too? What you are describing could well be simply the way they were, with adoption playing no part in it.

Oh, and by the way, it's pretty normal for children to have the same religion as their parents.

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

A friend of mine in high school "Cheryl" told me that she wanted to find her birth mom but felt like from how her parents were they would be hurt or angry and so she felt this burden she had to shield them and so had to put off until years later her search and subsequent contact she made, all kept a secret from her adoptive parents.

Cheryl made assumptions on how her parents would react and thus imposed on herself a delay in searching for her birth parents. Did she ever actually talk to them about it?

I can tell you this: though my kids are pre-teens now and thus way too young to search, I have already told them that when they are of age, I will not only give my blessing to search for their birth parents but I will help them do it, if they so desire. But I will also warn them to be prepared to face the possible fact that their birth parents might not want to be found.

[LLCNYC]

OP- all I can say is I'm sorry you are left with crappy feelings etc. I can imagine it's a tough road no matter what...on all sides possibly.

[joef279]

I'm selectively quoting only to save space, not in an attempt to take anything out of context.

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

In answer to your question yes it's true that my own experience,

Your experience and opinions formed from it are completely valid. My experience has been quite different. Others I have spoken with have still different experience from both you and I. There are no "most" and "majority" that I could ever find, which is why I have a problem with broad generalizations or stating one's opinions as fact.

Whenever I would play with her or spend the night, I noticed how doting her mother was, to point of being overprotective and felt like there was a good deal of insecurity or fear based feelings in how she would kind of hover,

I see your point, but I also know plenty of parents who are the same way with children who aren't adopted. Especially so with their first child. To me, this is a function of parenting choices and totally unrelated to any adoption issues.

This point is also what makes the topic so difficult to study. It is impossible to take the same child and put them in the same situation then eliminate only the adoption variable. You can study two brothers or sisters in the same household and see tremendous differences in personality.

felt like from how her parents were they would be hurt or angry and so she felt this burden she had to shield them

I would imagine this is a natural feeling. Not sure how this related to the "trauma" claims. We all do things to avoid hurting the ones we love, even if the "hurt" is only something we imagine will happen.

I know however that there is official research and data that correlates to the statement that adoption is a primary wound or trauma.

Yes, there are claims and supposed "studies." After reading this topic, I did some looking into it.

I can't seem to find any real science, but that's the case with so many of these psychological theories. The idea of a "primal would" certainly fits well with today's hipster psychological models, so I'm not surprised some have jumped on the band wagon.

Personally, I'm not worried about the PTSD I'm supposed to have. I'm especially not worried that this trauma has been permanently encoded into my DNA and passed on to my children. If science was even close to understaning memory and the brain, I might put more credence into these theories.

Do remember that this is the same "profession" which, in my lifetime, viewed shock therapy and lobotomies as "state of the art" therapy.

I distinctly remember an abnormal psych course in college during the 1980s. Half the class had to return their textbook because it was the prior year's edition. The big change? The prior year, homosexuality was listed as a "deviant" behavior that could/should be treated. The new book eliminated that as the national board decided it was "normal" behavior. (This is not a commentary on homosexuality - only an example of how things are constantly being re-written. It's not like the laws of physics.)

It's not to say that the physc community doesn't do some good things. Their work is crude and they have a poor understanding of how the mind works. It is more "art" than "science." They are also very locked in with big pharma who have a vested interest in find more "conditions" that can be medicated.

Bottom line, for every theory there is a counter theory, and neither have conclusive proof.

it would be just common sense for one to easily understand that in order for a child to be adopted, he first had to lose his parents, and the birth parents/ family lost their child-- not much of a leap to put the two together.

Lost - or gave up. I don't think anyone would argue against that obvious point. I'm just not convinced that giving up a child for adoption causes "trauma" or a "primal wound" that shapes the child's life in some negative way. I _can_ see the concept being a convenient crutch for people so they can blame someone else for their perceived problems.

I am going to spend some time when I can notating studies and the authors etc to later post here however for now I will mention the American Academy of Pediatrics article on "Assume adoption is a Trauma" article.

I can't find the full text of the article, but another site has the following, which seems to be quoted from the article (emphasis added).

“Pediatricians care for children before, during, and after traumatic experiences and must be skilled in identifying the many presentations of toxic stress. Assume that all children who have been adopted or fostered have experienced trauma. Just as not every child exposed to tuberculosis develops hemoptysis, fevers, and weight loss, not every child exposed to stress will develop trauma symptoms.

However, practice standards demand that all children exposed to either tuberculosis or trauma should be screened and tested. With tuberculosis, some exposed will show no clinical disease, some will have latent disease, and some will be ill. The same 3 outcomes apply to trauma exposure. The pediatrician must assume that such exposure could have profoundly impacted the child, and must use history taking, surveillance questions, and screening tools to accurately assess trauma’s impact.”

This doesn't appear to be a actual study. It appears to be an opinion piece by the AAP on treatment for a _potential_ condition that even they admit not all children will exhibit.

I certainly grant you that there are theories floating around to support your "trauma" premise. If read objectively, you have to see that it is nowhere near settled science. (It looks more like Dr. Phil armchair psychology to me).


Let's just say for a moment we agree on the birth trauma psycho-babble. How does that reflect negatively on adoption?

What happens when a woman gives birth and doesn't want the child? What's your solution to the "bad" insitution of adoption?

If not for adoption she could drop it in a dumpster. That has a very high chance of eliminating the long-term effects of trauma. Of course, the infant won't have a long-term anything.

She could also be "forced" into keeping the baby. The baby might grow up being neglected while the mother scores her next fix. Or simply spending a life being resented for "ruining" the mother's life. (I have known several "accidents" who suffered from the latter type of upbringing).

Or maybe she wants to keep the baby and try to make it work. Doesn't the child suffer from lack of "attachment" while being bounced around from caretaker to caretaker because the unskilled, undereducated young mother has to work three shifts just to put a bare minimum of food on the table?

Why is adoption a "negative" in any of these situations? How exactly does similar DNA make a stable, loving family less desirable?

If DNA is the key, would adoption by a bmom's identical twin be indistinguishable from the original bmom? Would that extend to brothers/sisters/grandparents or is there not enough DNA connection for it to work?

How is adoption the problem and not a solution?

[mondayafternoons]

Originally Posted by bus man

So how did Jenny's parents behave when other, non-adopted kids were playing with their daughter? Did they overfeed them and watch them like a hawk too? What you are describing could well be simply the way they were, with adoption playing no part in it.

Oh, and by the way, it's pretty normal for children to have the same religion as their parents.




Cheryl made assumptions on how her parents would react and thus imposed on herself a delay in searching for her birth parents. Did she ever actually talk to them about it?

I can tell you this: though my kids are pre-teens now and thus way too young to search, I have already told them that when they are of age, I will not only give my blessing to search for their birth parents but I will help them do it, if they so desire. But I will also warn them to be prepared to face the possible fact that their birth parents might not want to be found.

That's great you've expressed this to your kids, that means a lot and many adoptees do not receive this message

[mondayafternoons]

Joef279,

Hmmm, so you ask for literature that backs up adoption trauma and when I even just begin to notate a few pieces you brush it off (psychology) as "psycho babble"-- If you don't "believe" in psychology then there's no point in asking for studies hat back the trauma

[HighFlyingBird]

Originally Posted by mondayafternoons

It is an option that as another poster expressed should be a last resort-- I understand adoptive parents are not "the devil" ( with scary red horns and pitchfork for added effect). Adoptive parents at least most of them don't carry a pitchfork however otoh a significant number or I would say majority of them don't understand on a deeper level of what their child has experienced and will their entire life. For the most part adoptive parents wish to see their adopted children or try to pretend they are their "own"-- hence why so many adoptive parents request bio parents with similar heritage and coloring. Of course there are exceptions. There really isn't from my and my sisters experience along with a couple kids I knew who were also adopted there isn't a genuine seeking to understand first the fact of their adopted child came from their first family-- the whole thing is not in any concerted or genuine manner acknowledgement that their kid in order to be adopted, first had to suffer a primary and traumatic loss of their parents. That's the only way one ends up being adopted- by first losing their parents.

I know 100s of adoptive parents....many hundrends and only a handful have this antiquated understanding of adoption...and they are highly narcissistic and crappy parents in general.

Most adoptive parents do not request same race children any longer. They used to because of a multitude of reasons (from legal to social...and even for concerns about the child). But no...this is not true any more.

You might be speaking your truth, and that is fine. But it isn't accurate for the adoption community as it stands now. And it isn't true for many people adopted at the time you were, even.

Own your own feelings and write your story...not tell us how bad adoption in general. Realize that feelings aren't facts and the 3 adopted people you know can not substitute for actual research. If you did this, people could learn from you instead of discount you for just being bitter and looking for people to blame.