Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Status:
"We need America back!"
(set 14 hours ago)
Location: Suburban Dallas
52,687 posts, read 47,946,017 times
Reputation: 33840
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
QUESTION for Cards fans: Do you think they will ever retire Pujols number?
Good question. It's certainly a possibility. Pujols, however, previously said that he wouldn't mind if the Cards didn't retire his number and gave it to another player.
They retired Ken Boyer's, but he came back to manage, which was probably a factor, and also he was SENT away, and did not leave of his own free will like Pujols. Yet (scandalously, in my mind) they refuse to retire Willie McGee's number, even though he ended his career in StL. And his career stats are at least comparable to Boyer's.
I think they ought to retire Mike Shannon's number, too, but they'll probably wait til he's dead. And what about Lee Smith? 100 more saves for the Cards than Sutter, who bailed out for more money, and they retired his. Jason Isringhausen saved even more, and I bet they don't retires his number, either. What's with the Sutter love affair? I guess they thought since they have to retire 42 anyway, they might as well paint Sutter's picture up on the wall, too. I wonder if they thought of putting Harvey Haddix up there, too, for 42. And Jim Cosman and Ray Bare. Haddix is more deserving than Sutter, Haddix won 20 games for the Cards as a rookie, and played for the Cardinals longer than Sutter did..
Who do you think will be traded? I'm betting on Schumaker, which would be a serious mistake, and maybe Craig if Berkman makes a successful comeback. I hope they don't move Jay, I think he is potentially the franchise. It's time to give up on Greene, but they can't get anything for him. Garcia would have been on my list, I think they are at the end of their rope with him, but he's DL now.
The only thing they really need is middle relief, and that's the luck of the draw. All you can do is keep shuttling them in and out, hoping to hit in a few having (for them) a career year. Middle relievers are never worth trading talent for.
Who do you think will be traded? I'm betting on Schumaker, which would be a serious mistake, and maybe Craig if Berkman makes a successful comeback.
Could you explain why trading a middling back-up infielder would be a serious mistake but trading a young cost-controlled slugger wouldn't?
Quote:
I hope they don't move Jay, I think he is potentially the franchise.
If you want a mediocre franchise. Jay's a good player. Doubtful that he'll ever be great. He doesn't have enough power and he doesn't do enough other things.
Quote:
It's time to give up on Greene, but they can't get anything for him.
Agreed. Greene is just a guy
Quote:
Garcia would have been on my list, I think they are at the end of their rope with him, but he's DL now.
Again, why do you think it is a good idea to trade a young, cheap, talented player? You get more back, but, young, cheap, talented players are what you're looking for.
Quote:
The only thing they really need is middle relief, and that's the luck of the draw. All you can do is keep shuttling them in and out, hoping to hit in a few having (for them) a career year. Middle relievers are never worth trading talent for.
If your only need is middle relievers, you should count yourself pretty lucky...
Could you explain why trading a middling back-up infielder would be a serious mistake but trading a young cost-controlled slugger wouldn't?
If you want a mediocre franchise. Jay's a good player. Doubtful that he'll ever be great. He doesn't have enough power and he doesn't do enough other things.
Agreed. Greene is just a guy
Again, why do you think it is a good idea to trade a young, cheap, talented player? You get more back, but, young, cheap, talented players are what you're looking for.
If your only need is middle relievers, you should count yourself pretty lucky...
I was thinking in terms of trade value. They would get nothing in return for Schumaker, and he is more than middling. Consistent productivity on offense, and competent versatility on defense, more valuable than that they are using him for. If all their slots are filled, he's the best utility man in baseball.
How are they going to get use out of Craig, if Berkman is back? He has very high trade value, and no real place where he will fit in on this team. Maybe he can play third, but that would be helpful only if Freese can play a middle infield position, which I doubt. Second and short are where they are vulnerable, they have plenty of corner players. Furcal is having an all-star year, but that can't be depended upon in the future.
Garcia seems to lack the emotional stability (so far) that you need in your starting rotation. Carpenter may come back, we'll see, but it's not promising. Plenty of depth in the starting rotation though, especially if Kelly works out, but that's still iffy. Craig and Garcia together could maybe shake loose the best 2B in baseball, without leaving any holes.
My assumptions are based on the old-fashioned idea that you trade players to fill a lineup card, but you have a point in an era when all you do is trade salaries. They took my advice and said goodbye to Pujols, so now they have some money to play with.
I was thinking in terms of trade value. They would get nothing in return for Schumaker, and he is more than middling.
I agree that they wouldn't get much in return for Schumaker, since he's not that good. If he was all that you're suggesting that he is likely some other GM would recognize this and would offer something in return.
Quote:
Consistent productivity on offense,
In 2008 and 2009 Schu hit around .360/.400 which was about 6% better than the average hitter.
In 2010 and 2011 Schu hit around ..330/.340 which was about 12% worse than the average hitter.
In 2012 Schu is hitting (in a small sample) .360/.410 which is 10% better than the average hitter.
Schumaker is something like a league average bat, which is certainly useful.
Quote:
and competent versatility on defense,
Defense is harder to measure, but 3 different systems agree that Schumaker is a well-below average fielder as a 2Bman.
Total zone has him at -18 runs for his career.
Ultimate zone has him at -30 runs
The Fans Scouting Report has him at -27
The numbers on his OF defense are a bit more mixed. Likely he's something like an average defender as a left or right fielder and a poor defensive center fielder.
Quote:
more valuable than that they are using him for.
I assume you mean that they should use him as the starting 2Bman?
His competition is Descalso and Greene. ZiPS projects almost idential offensive performance from all 3 and Descalso and Greene almost have to be better defenders than Schumaker making either of them a better option at second.
Quote:
How are they going to get use out of Craig, if Berkman is back? He has very high trade value, and no real place where he will fit in on this team.
I believe that Berkman is a free agent after the season. Craig would seem to make perfect sense as the starting first baseman next season. No reason to give him up for an upgrade at middle relief this season.
Quote:
Garcia seems to lack the emotional stability (so far) that you need in your starting rotation.
I can't comment on his emotional stability, but his results have been very good. He strikes out and walks an average amount of hitters while getting significantly more ground balls than the average pitcher.
Quote:
Carpenter may come back, we'll see, but it's not promising.
Pretty sure the team just announced that he's going under the knife and won't be back this season.
Quote:
Plenty of depth in the starting rotation though, especially if Kelly works out, but that's still iffy.
I'm not a Kelly fan.
Quote:
Craig and Garcia together could maybe shake loose the best 2B in baseball, without leaving any holes.
Utley? Kinsler? Cano? Pedroia? Zobrist?
Not sure that any of those guys are available
Quote:
My assumptions are based on the old-fashioned idea that you trade players to fill a lineup card, but you have a point in an era when all you do is trade salaries.
Not sure why you'd think this was true. Salaries certainly need to be considered though.
My point was not that they SHOULD make any of those trades, but that they are the defending champs floundering in the middle of the pack at mid season and might be thinking of changing personnel. If they are considering trades, who could profitably be traded?
In defense of Schumaker, he is regarded as utility, and as such, has pretty damned good offense, and can fill in as a spot starter either centerfield or middle infield, in addition to being a seasoned veteran and bats left -- all plusses. That kind of utility is hard to find and has an inherent value of its own which should not be squandered.
Descalso is clearly the 2B-designate, I don't know why they are messing with anybody else at that position. They have way too much invested in Greene, and are afraid to cut the umbilical. He was top draft choice, what, 8 years ago, and they haven't gotten a dozen decent games out of him. He's as old as Molina.
So, just as we broach the second base issue, Matheny comes up with his fourth 2B of the season, starting Matt Carpenter at a position he hasn't played since he was 12 years old. Carpenter was the backup 1B when Berkman and Craig were both DL, and Craig played 9 games last year at 2B, which begs the question of why not Craig at 2B and Carpenter at 1B? If Craig turned out to be a competent 2B that would make their lineup basically awesome. However, nothing is gained by fitting Carpenter into that spot, except Carpenter instead of Descalso (not an obvious improvement) and still no place for Craig.
I found myself briefly toying with the idea of a trade of Craig and Garcia (nearly anagrams -- give that man a cigar) for Tulowitzki, since it looks like major rebuilding is in the Rockes future. Tulo, 7 years younger, would be the heir apparent to Furcal, but fill in at second until then. The downside is his Pujolsesque contract.
Last edited by jtur88; 07-05-2012 at 11:38 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
