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Most people would say Magic, Kidd, Nash, Stockton or even CP3 might outrank Lebron here. But I don't see why that would be the case other than the fact that they are point guards. They also have higher assist numbers, which is about the only real objective argument one can make about why they are better, but they also didn't/don't look to score as much, and assist totals aren't the best barometer of floor vision and passing ability anyway (ex. Westbrook).
Greatest passer seems to be much more subjective than greatest scorer. Even still, Lebron has demonstrated some of the best floor vision the game has ever seen. So what is the argument against him not being better at passing than Magic or Stockton besides "They were just better"?
I think we can say that Lebron is the greatest passer the game has ever seen for two reasons. One, he sees the floor as well as anyone, Magic included. And two, he's strong enough to rifle passes through tight windows and over EXTREMELY long distances. I think this second consideration is what distinguishes him from Kidd, Nash and Stockton who were simply not strong enough to make many of the passes Lebron makes.
Most people would say Magic, Kidd, Nash, Stockton or even CP3 might outrank Lebron here. But I don't see why that would be the case other than the fact that they are point guards. They also have higher assist numbers, which is about the only real objective argument one can make about why they are better, but they also didn't/don't look to score as much, and assist totals aren't the best barometer of floor vision and passing ability anyway (ex. Westbrook).
Greatest passer seems to be much more subjective than greatest scorer. Even still, Lebron has demonstrated some of the best floor vision the game has ever seen. So what is the argument against him not being better at passing than Magic or Stockton besides "They were just better"?
I'll ask, "what is the criteria for being the best passer?"
Best passing skill of some of the three you mention:
I would agree LeBron is probably the best at "making the impossible pass." He changed basketball by creating angles that didn't exist before, but are now part of many player's tool kits (no-look drive and kick out for corner-3s, for instance)
Magic's skill was using his own size, handle, and body control to create lay-ups and dunks for teammates. His passing had a flair that has never been matched, IMO. His dishes were the highlight, the basket the afterthought.
Stockton's skill was knowing where Malone wanted the ball and getting it to him there on time and in the pocket each and every time. He is the best of the "floor general" point guard mold who handles the ball almost exclusively; when he passes it normally means somebody shoots (for instance in Stockton's top assist season, 89/90, no other Jazz player averaged more than 2.8 assists per game.)
Devil's advocate arguments against each of the above players:
LeBron is Jokic-lite as a passer. Despite being the FAR superior athlete, his vision is a split-second slower, and misses many of the bunnies Jokic creates by hitting cutters, inside lobs, one-time touch passes, etc. In short, Jokic makes the same passes LeBron makes but does it better.
Magic benefited from elite finishers in Worthy and Kareem in an era where nearly every team was content with fast break pace basketball. He created less assists with the threat of his own scoring in the 1/2 court than other players we are discussing and his stats would drop in today's game accordingly.
Stockton's job was passing it a teammate so he could shoot. Pair that with Malone who shot 18-20 times each game and you get absurd numbers. Stockon's assist totals didn't explode until Malone's first All Star season, and dropped to single digits at about the same time Malone started to slow in his mid-30s (Stockton's minutes drop here too as he ages, his assist percent remains sublime, just not what it was.)
So, my answer is you want the guy who made passing an art form, pick Magic. If you want the guy who makes the impossible look easy, pick LeBron. If you want the guy who best fit the mold of "NBA player who is on the floor to pass" pick Stockton. In a few years I think Jokic will be on this short list too.
The discussion about great point guard play is very nuanced because you can average a bunch of assists and seem like you're doing a good job, but you are actually being selfish and hurting the team. Seems like a contradiction but I'll try to explain.
There is such a thing as selfish point guard play that Lebron and Westbrook in particular have been guilty of in the past...holding on to the ball and ONLY making the pass when the chances of the receiving player scoring are super high, ie either wide open for a 3 pointer or alone under the basket. Sometimes you can throw the pass and let your teammate go to work, still getting the bucket but losing the assist. Lebron has been known to refuse to do this when trying to get his assists up. Also refusing to make the "assist pass" or hockey assist where he makes the pass that leads to the assist since those dont get counted in the stats. I'm not saying he does this all the time but he has been known to in the past.
My pick is going to seem like out of left field...Isiah Thomas.
I'm old school when I look at point guards. To me, a great PG is one who has his finger on the pulse of his team and the game, and knows when to pass the ball to get teammates involved, but also when to take over the game by scoring. IT gave you both. He led the league in assists once or twice in the 80s right in the middle of Magic's prime, only he didnt have all time greats like Kareem and Worthy to pass to.
IT could give you 15 assists, or 30 points, or both. For all his greatness, Magic wasnt really a dominant scorer. Put it this way, you swap out Magic for IT on those Showtime Laker squads, and they still win a few championships. Tell Magic that instead of Worthy and Kareem he gets to pass to Rodman and John Salley. Maybe he gets them to a ring, but I doubt it. Same with Stockton. Put Isiah instead of him and Malone still gets his numbers. It's hard to picture Stock being as effective without the greatest PF of all time to pass to. That's why when he got picked over Isiah for the Dream Team, it was so controversial and still hasnt died down till this day. The whole world knew that IT was by far the better PG.
That's why for all his playoff chokes, I'll always treasure CP3. He's the last of a dying breed of PG and it's no coincidence that every team he's landed on has done much better than before he arrived. With the way the game has evolved where all the guards want to be Curry, I dont think we'll see any more traditional PGs...and that's a shame.
^^^^Couldn't rep you guys but both of your posts made me smile. More old school. I'll throw in Nate Archibald in the mix. In '73, "Tiny" Archibald led the league in points and assists. (34 pts-11.4 assists) for the Kansas City Kings. He only got one chip with Boston. (Bird's second year, I believe, in '81) IMO, IT's game resembled Tiny's game. Nobody could hold either of those guys one on one. Scoring and assists that helped win games. Not just scoring and passing to pad stats, i.e. Westbrook, etc. That 34 pts a game average leading the league in scoring is, I believe, still a record for a point guard.
I am a Laker fan and current fan of LeBron. He is one of the best passers of all time who is not a point guard. Bill Walton and Jokic are in that discussion. Lots of those lists have LeBron at the top. Bird is up there also.
Obviously, LeBron James is at the top of our list once again, as he’s always been known for his top-tier playmaking ability, and his desire to lead the offense. Also, he’s one of the smartest players ever.
James has eyes on the back of his head and always seems to know where his teammates and rivals are supposed to be. He’s got the highest basketball IQ in the league and outstanding court vision, and that’s why he’s a terrific playmaker.
I am a Laker fan and current fan of LeBron. He is one of the best passers of all time who is not a point guard. Bill Walton and Jokic are in that discussion. Lots of those lists have LeBron at the top. Bird is up there also.
Obviously, LeBron James is at the top of our list once again, as he’s always been known for his top-tier playmaking ability, and his desire to lead the offense. Also, he’s one of the smartest players ever.
James has eyes on the back of his head and always seems to know where his teammates and rivals are supposed to be. He’s got the highest basketball IQ in the league and outstanding court vision, and that’s why he’s a terrific playmaker.
But its all subjective.
Big time Lebron fan here. He's on the Mt. Rushmore of NBA greats. He's #4 in assists all time. Only ones ahead of him are pure point guards.(Stockton, Kidd, CP3)
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