Mountain Brook has little space to grow! (Birmingham, Hoover: crime rate, homes)

[Tourian]

To save money on duplicate services. To pool tax revenues for larger projects such as mass transit or stadiums. Nothing would change as far as the level of education atttained at MB schools or the home values or the prestige of living in 35223 (or '13 or '43) They could even keep those fancy black street signs and change the city limit signs to say school district or township limit. Whatever, same difference. A money line. There are multi-million dollar homes in south Birmingham that dont suffer from the stigma of being associated with or being in the same city as West End or Kingston.

Were going in circles again. Asked and answered. If it is absurd to you to discuss...dont partcipate, no one is forcing you to.

[MinivanDriver]

Originally Posted by steveklein

But why would Mountain Brook want to merge with communities that have lower education, lower civic involvement, etc.

This is such an absurd debate to be having. Socialism to the max.

You cannot be serious. Every time you march into a grocery store, you pay 10% sales tax.

Let that sink in. 10%. One tenth. You don't like socialism? You're getting it every time you buy a loaf of bread at Publix.

Let's be clear, I'm not talking about merging educational systems. I'm talking about combining other services. Why should we have 34 jails, 34 sets of police dispatchers, 34 fire departments, 34 purchasing departments, 34 parks and recreation departments, and 34 of everything else? It's just an idiotic duplication of services that hits everyone in the wallet. I mean, all you have to do is look at the Personnel Board of Jefferson County that handles the recruitment and human resources for every municipality. They had a rough patch about ten years ago, but now it works really well.

So the only thing that's absurd is your argument that it's socialism. Seriously? Seriously, you would apply socialism to this? I mean, what a ridiculous, knee-jerk statement.

How in God's name can you possibly apply the term socialism to the notion that we could possibly eliminate government waste and actually reduce the size of local government, local expenditure and, by extension, taxation? I mean, you do understand what socialism is, right? This is the exact opposite.

Instead, the only people who profit from this current arrangement are civil servants and city councilpersons presiding over their own personal fiefdoms. No matter how many bogeymen you choose to loft up to scare people.

Socialism, my foot.

[steveklein]

I don't think there is a better example of delusion than the fact that some of you actually think Mountain Brook residents would willingly merge with the city of Birmingham.

Seriously. Put it to a vote. Even with the schools taken out of the equation, it would be a 95-5 vote... and we all know it.

[Tourian]

Originally Posted by steveklein

I don't think there is a better example of delusion than the fact that some of you actually think Mountain Brook residents would willingly merge with the city of Birmingham.

Cool deflection. The only delusional thought brought here is you saying it is socialism. No one here has talked about willingness...in fact everyone here has either said they wouldnt willingly do it and/or that it would take some adverse condition for it to be considered. Regardless there are several benefits to be considered which is what the thread is about.

[supfromthesite]

TIL a 10% sales tax means that our food industry is socialized.

Where do you guys learn this stuff?

Anyway....

No better way to ruin Mountain Brook than make it a part of Birmingham! It's already bad enough they are in the same county.

I would love to live there one day so I hope the residents resist this madness.

[MinivanDriver]

Originally Posted by supfromthesite

TIL a 10% sales tax means that our food industry is socialized.

Where do you guys learn this stuff?

Anyway....

No better way to ruin Mountain Brook than make it a part of Birmingham! It's already bad enough they are in the same county.

I would love to live there one day so I hope the residents resist this madness.

Not very good reading comprehension on your part. A government that is slapping 10% sales tax on anything is socialistic. I think it's kind of fascinating that you guys are bandying that term around like it's the bogeyman, then agreeing with its working principles.

Further, because you guys can't seem to grasp a fairly straightforward concept, I'll repeat it again: This is not about merging school systems, which means it's not about merging cities.

No, it's about pooling resources for basic services such as fire, police, parks and recreation, etc.

[supfromthesite]

Originally Posted by MinivanDriver

Not very good reading comprehension on your part. A government that is slapping 10% sales tax on anything is socialistic. I think it's kind of fascinating that you guys are bandying that term around like it's the bogeyman, then agreeing with its working principles.

Further, because you guys can't seem to grasp a fairly straightforward concept, I'll repeat it again: This is not about merging school systems, which means it's not about merging cities.

No, it's about pooling resources for basic services such as fire, police, parks and recreation, etc.

Birmingham can't even take care of its own city, how do you possibly expect them to take care of Mtn. Brook?

[steveklein]

Originally Posted by Tourian

Cool deflection. The only delusional thought brought here is you saying it is socialism. No one here has talked about willingness...in fact everyone here has either said they wouldnt willingly do it and/or that it would take some adverse condition for it to be considered. Regardless there are several benefits to be considered which is what the thread is about.

The site is called city data. Not city pipedream.

And you and others are conveniently deflecting that Mountain Brook residents would have to give up their superior services. It isn't just the schools. Police and fire protection are better. Things at city hall move faster. It is all better in Mountain Brook because their higher property taxes help fund these things. The residents of Mountain Brook have no desire in sacrificing their quality of life so the mayor of Birmingham and his over 100 employees can line their own pockets. Or do you think that it is reasonable for the payroll of the mayor's office to exceed that of Philadelphia and Boston's... combined?

Nowhere have I said that the metropolitan area wouldn't benefit if it weren't so fragmented. I'm just stating the fairly obvious fact that Mountain Brook (and Vestavia... and Homewood...and others...) aren't going to willingly sacrifice their own services. Perhaps if all of Birmingham's city services equaled that of those over the mountain communities, then the discussion could happen. But it's not going to happen as long as there is an ocean of difference in services between the municipalities.

Also, if you don't see how forcing those who have giving to those who have not is a form of socialism then there is no saving you.

[Mississippi Alabama Line]

Originally Posted by Tourian

Mountain Brook's zip codes would still enjoy a low crime rate to keep their property values higher than say... Gate City. Who is doing the policing wont change that.

I was going to reply to this until steveklein answered it much better than I ever could:

Originally Posted by steveklein

The site is called city data. Not city pipedream.

And you and others are conveniently deflecting that Mountain Brook residents would have to give up their superior services. It isn't just the schools. Police and fire protection are better. Things at city hall move faster. It is all better in Mountain Brook because their higher property taxes help fund these things. The residents of Mountain Brook have no desire in sacrificing their quality of life so the mayor of Birmingham and his over 100 employees can line their own pockets. Or do you think that it is reasonable for the payroll of the mayor's office to exceed that of Philadelphia and Boston's... combined?

Nowhere have I said that the metropolitan area wouldn't benefit if it weren't so fragmented. I'm just stating the fairly obvious fact that Mountain Brook (and Vestavia... and Homewood...and others...) aren't going to willingly sacrifice their own services. Perhaps if all of Birmingham's city services equaled that of those over the mountain communities, then the discussion could happen. But it's not going to happen as long as there is an ocean of difference in services between the municipalities.

Also, if you don't see how forcing those who have giving to those who have not is a form of socialism then there is no saving you.

Truth.

I get the reason why some would want this. But the bottom line is, Birmingham would drag Mountain Brook WAY farther down, than Mountain Brook would lift Birmingham. Would Birmingham get better? Yes. But it would probably be a net decrease when you add Mountain Brook and Birmingham together.

Mountain Brook LIKES the fact that it's land-locked. It's drives values up even more....which produces even more tax money. They literally have no problems at the moment. This is a simple case of jealousy - Birmingham wants what Mountain Brook has.

Literally the only way forward is to have a regional government. Look at Huntsville and all they are going through with the school re-zoning. Are they better off by having a huge swath of area under the City of Huntsville umbrella? I don't think it matters at all. What matters is being UNITED, one way or the other, and you'll get more traction with a regional government than some sort of charity annexation. The toothpaste is out of the tube in Birmingham - there is no going back.

[Tourian]

Originally Posted by steveklein

The site is called city data. Not city pipedream.

There are plenty of topics here about speculation, and plenty that you have initiated and participated in. Don't get cute.

And you and others are conveniently deflecting that Mountain Brook residents would have to give up their superior services. It isn't just the schools. Police and fire protection are better. Things at city hall move faster. It is all better in Mountain Brook because their higher property taxes help fund these things. The residents of Mountain Brook have no desire in sacrificing their quality of life so the mayor of Birmingham and his over 100 employees can line their own pockets. Or do you think that it is reasonable for the payroll of the mayor's office to exceed that of Philadelphia and Boston's... combined?

"Police and fire protection are better." Prove it. And no Birmingham's higher crime rate is not proof. The richer more prosperous areas of Birmingham enjoy low crime rates as well. BFRS can put out a fire just as good as anyone and has top notch equipment.

A merger like that would have to have a council with local representation too, and William Bell would not necessarily be the mayor. Was that that the key cornerstone to your...heh..."point?"

Also, if you don't see how forcing those who have giving to those who have not is a form of socialism then there is no saving you.

That hasn't been suggested, but that's what you do. Keep buildin' 'em.