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Location: Falls Creek Ski Resort, Victoria, Australia
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Originally Posted by happiness is
Well, when I was a student, it was during the Viet Nam war, the counter culture was beginning, and the local Bozeman police station had a bounty on "hippie hair", so guys were getting beaten up on campus and their hair cut off and taken down to the police station to collect the bounty. Any female who didn't have a hair-sprayed hairdo and who wore jeans and any male with a mustache, beard, or hair below the tops of their ears were hated by the locals. I remember going fishing over by Ennis and went into the local bar just to buy a coke and chips... the bartender was very rude, she said immediately, "I won't serve ya, I won't serve ya". So I had to turn around and get out of there. Mind you, I was just a normal nineteen year old, but the guy I was with had a mustache and I had long hair and bell bottom jeans, which at the time was a red flag.
That's how bad it was.
Hey, that brings back memories. It was the same in Australia at the time. I was married to the drummer of a really popular counter culture rock band and boy, were we targeted by all the authorities. Harangued for just walking down the street.
Unfortunately the University is run horribly, so the lifeblood is toxic. They really recruit vulgar students that make even the party ECU-ers and redneck NC State students in NC to be well behaved. I only see stores and businesses going out of their way for the students and leaving some of the rest of us behind. The police write off student behavior for a lot of things that in other areas priced there would be more oversight. All the stores only hire college students. I am a graduate from a top ten university and the jobs are all taken up by college students, so I don't know where that comes from. The landlords, may be slum lords (ours is not thank God, but the environment of students is); but they love the students because it is EASY money without their having to invest anything into the property, making even the nicest neighborhoods look haphazard in their upkeep, which makes the housing costs even more ridiculous. I am a recent graduate and fairly young and I resent students. The quality of students at MSU is pretty low - they get the easiest catches so they can get more cash to build the university (they then screw over the good students out of the financial aid so they can admit more for fundraising purposes), so the university really has a lot of issues and yes this comes from over thirty people I've spoken with about MSU and myself who went there a year. I then transferred to Vanderbilt where I got a full scholarship (I'm not a trust fund baby and have held a job since I was 12) and grad school at UNC. They also have one of the lowest rates of paying teachers in the country - so MSU as a centerpiece of the town...it is a shame because growing up in Raleigh, even in Nashville the university was a benefit to the town. Bozeman just screwed up on so many levels, kind of a mix of poor university management, rude people, trust fund segment, ski bums, etc...I cannot quite pinpoint one problem that can fix Bozeman. It has a lot of issues that on the surface seem minor, but over time really make this an unsustainable environment to live in long-term.
What a nice bunch of generalizations about MSU students. I especially think it's strange that you think MSU has low class people as well. I guess that makes me low class since I had to stay in state (like many other students there). I agree the trust fund babies and ski bums are a problem, but I did not find most of the students there to be rude (unlike MANY of the residents of Bozeman) nor did I think the university was poorly managed. And that line about the businesses going out of their way for students is laughable to put it nicely. Maybe it's changed since I went there but I had numerous dirty looks from business owners if they saw me pull up in my older car and I sent out numerous applications for part-time work and never heard anything back.
One thing about any town is that each person is going to see it differently. It only takes one minor incident to change your whole outlook on a place and like anything negative, it goes down hill from there, be it your attitude and outlook, or maybe it's just what you encounter.
I defended my hometown for years and couldn't see anything wrong...... Until I moved away and stood on the outside, looking in. Today, I don't much care for it. Some people would say that maybe it's because it changed. No, it was like that all along, but being in there, and moving within the circle, I couldn't see it.
Bottom line is that each person is going to see it differently. Some good, some bad, but it's an opinion and everybody is entitled to their own.
I have never been to Bozeman. Well, I have, but just going through on the highway. One town that I really liked was Hamilton and I hear a lot of negative about Hamilton. However, I had friends there and used to go visit. I didn't have to live there, I didn't have to put up with, or actually didn't see any clickish attitudes, but I could certainly see where it could be.
As someone who vacationed in SW Montana for years and finally made the move several years ago I'll give you my thoughts on living here (to any locals, I'm no trustfunder and like many others can't afford to own a home here).
As mentioned many times it is a beautiful part of the country and there is no shortage of outdoor activities to enjoy.
I can't comment on the university as I live on the other side of town and don't interact with many students. The few students I've met were actually really mature, interesting young people.
There are many things to like about Bozeman, however, the population is very different than any area I've ever lived. Whether locals, trust funders, young families, etc. people are generally pretty nice as most folks are here because they want to be. That being said, if you are someone who wasn't born with any sort of privilege and has had to work hard for whatever success you've found you may find it hard to relate to most of the people you meet in this town. At least, that has been my experience as someone who grew up dirt poor and has had to work for everything I've ever gotten. I want to be careful to say again that this isn't to imply that people you meet who have inherited wealth or some measure of it are bad, rude, stuck up, or the like. It's just hard to relate to someone who has never experienced the kind of challenges you have and who therefore doesn't look at the world at large with any sort of insight gained by having had to navigate it.
It is an undeniable fact that all the money made elsewhere but brought to the Bozeman area has made home ownership an expensive proposition. I've found that health insurance costs twice as much as it did where I previously lived so in my experience the cost of living is extremely high.
If you can afford to live here and don't believe that interacting with many, many, many people who have never had to struggle financially and therefor think it normal to have their children play soccer and travel all over the West, see a personal trainer 4 days a week, pay $100 for dinner out for a below average meal,...will bother you then it might be a good choice for you.
One thing I would add is that, in my opinion, the challenge with the winter is not really that it is so cold it is that it is so long. If you enjoy winter activities this should be no problem but if not it can really feel like winter is 7 months long when you see your first snow by October 1 and the last one is in May/June.
The past president, Gamble, cleaned up a lot of garbage that went on under President Malone. As an alum, and a student at the time of his passing, Malone was not liked at the university by the staff, faculty and student body. It was so bad that he died after interviewing for the presidency at Eastern Washington (which was fighting at the time to not become a branch campus of Washington State). The staff almost struck twice in 6 months while I was there. The faculty was tired of having to send their own personnel to the legislature for funding, not using the MSU paid lobbiests. The Library was refused funding numerous times for remodeling funds until the Friends of the Library and ASMSU went and asked for the funds themselves. He was a total wus when it came to getting funds from the state while jacking the out-of-state tuition and in-state tuition for students to pay for useless features. Students hated the fact that Malone pushed through using rent-a-cops at games and ending a 100 year tradition of all student security teams at football and basketball games. Campus cops were used, at the time, for day to day security and assisting security in detaining the drunks. I was sorry he died but very glad he was gone.
I'm not sold on Cruzado. Gamble who was a self-made guy from Fresno defended MSU and wanted to emphasize research. It is a huge success with funding and finding professors who can both teach and do research. MSU does not allow professors to not teach at least one class during a calendar year. Cruzado hasn't hired faculty and been slow to build dorms for the record numbers of students. IMHO, Hedges and Roskey need to be torn down and new dorms built. She is great at lip service which the California, sorry, Bozeman Comical eats up.
As someone who vacationed in SW Montana for years and finally made the move several years ago I'll give you my thoughts on living here (to any locals, I'm no trustfunder and like many others can't afford to own a home here).
As mentioned many times it is a beautiful part of the country and there is no shortage of outdoor activities to enjoy.
I can't comment on the university as I live on the other side of town and don't interact with many students. The few students I've met were actually really mature, interesting young people.
There are many things to like about Bozeman, however, the population is very different than any area I've ever lived. Whether locals, trust funders, young families, etc. people are generally pretty nice as most folks are here because they want to be. That being said, if you are someone who wasn't born with any sort of privilege and has had to work hard for whatever success you've found you may find it hard to relate to most of the people you meet in this town. At least, that has been my experience as someone who grew up dirt poor and has had to work for everything I've ever gotten. I want to be careful to say again that this isn't to imply that people you meet who have inherited wealth or some measure of it are bad, rude, stuck up, or the like. It's just hard to relate to someone who has never experienced the kind of challenges you have and who therefore doesn't look at the world at large with any sort of insight gained by having had to navigate it.
It is an undeniable fact that all the money made elsewhere but brought to the Bozeman area has made home ownership an expensive proposition. I've found that health insurance costs twice as much as it did where I previously lived so in my experience the cost of living is extremely high.
If you can afford to live here and don't believe that interacting with many, many, many people who have never had to struggle financially and therefor think it normal to have their children play soccer and travel all over the West, see a personal trainer 4 days a week, pay $100 for dinner out for a below average meal,...will bother you then it might be a good choice for you.
One thing I would add is that, in my opinion, the challenge with the winter is not really that it is so cold it is that it is so long. If you enjoy winter activities this should be no problem but if not it can really feel like winter is 7 months long when you see your first snow by October 1 and the last one is in May/June.
I hope this helps.
I have lived in Bozeman for 3 years and have desired to live here for many years-feel blessed to be here-awesome mountain town. My only gripe is that skiing is more expensive than CO where we moved from. It is not all trust funders etc.
Me: Miner
Wife: Medical Worker
Neighbor: Subaru Rep
Neighbor: Veterinary Tech
Neighbor:Ski host/Golf Greens Keeper
Neighbor: College Professor
Neighbor: Custom Car Mechanic
Neighbors: MSU Students
Friendly folks happy to live in Bozeman! And most of us own our own homes.
A few college drunks can get annoying but NOTHING like my home town of Pullman,WA
Bozeman is *trying* to be the next Vail, Aspen as it outlies the cusp of Big Sky which was, at one time, a beautiful place but has now become home to large corporations who have bought small skiing entities and developed the property so extensively, the high density of housing/condos and people is almost unbearable. Lehmann Brothers owns Moonlight Basin through nefarious business practices, and Black Stone investment firm (the largest real estate holdings entity in the US) now owns Lone Mountain - a former family-owned and operated business. Rarely do you find a NATIVE Montanan here any more and that is very sad indeed.
The older ranchers and farmers are moving out and a large population of yuppie, trust funders, pension recipients are moving in. The landscape of this city (it used to be a town) has changed in more ways than one, and it now lacks the small-town flavor that used to feature copious mom and pop stores populating Main Street and the side streets. The influx of those from other states includes, but are not limited to: California, Michigan, Washington, Texas, Utah, Florida, Virginia, Georgia, Colorado, Oregon, in that order and according to census data from the DMV. The influx here is severely straining the city's infrastructure and it seems over the last two years every single street, highway and piece of asphalt has been under construction. Because Bozeman has a university in its midst and the faculty are some of the highest paid people in the area, the prices of housing caters to that income strata. In other words, housing is not cheap. Lots of trophy housing here, too, which strains the environment and peppers the landscape with huge monolithic structures that are perched on mountain tops, ruining the views and feel of the open vistas. But hey! It brings in tax revenues and elevates those who build them in their own minds! Lots of little plastic houses here, too, along Huffine, as if someone had shaken a salt shaker on both sides of the road and where each grain of salt fell, so did a condo, house, building, business, fast food restaurant, gas station, bank, church. Medical care is improving and I've heard the argument that Billings is better than Bozeman and vice versa; Billings is more established; Bozeman is still getting its feet wet and improving all the time. The weather here is capricious and winters are cold.....how cold, how much snow, etc. are all incidentals. No one can give an accurate accounting; you have to experience it to see if you can tolerate it. Whether you fit in or not, is a matter of how you live your life. I am extremely friendly and accommodating, donating a lot of my time to charities, but still find many Bozemanites stand-offish, cold and subversive; Not all, but enough to make it something to be concerned about.
This is a very kid-oriented place, and if you are childless, like me, your chances of befriending another woman who has children is slim at best. They have very little interest in you or what you can bring to the community. Most of my friends come from other outlying towns.
Many strange habits here. Try getting a contractor to your house to do work if you are a woman and have a fist full of 100-dollar bills waving in their face - doesn't happen. Try getting someone in the service industry to answer your phone calls; maybe after hunting season, fishing season, ski season, snowmobiling season or any other recreational excuse you can think of. Some know you need their service and they just don't care. I have never gotten used to that peculiarity here.
Everything, however is relative. If you've been rat-packed in LA, or come from a place where you can't breathe the air, then you will find this a nice change. If, however, you have lived here most of your life, you honestly don't like what is happening to your state/city/town. It's being overrun, ruined and built up.
I spent almost a month in the Bozeman area and I never saw or heard any friction towards outsiders. It was a very peaceful town and the people were quite friendly in my experience. The earlier comment about the smaller towns being standoffish has some truth to it but youll find its like that in every state. I went all over Western Montana and the only town that I ever experienced it was in Moore outside of Lewiston. We stopped at a restaurant and a man refused to let my girlfriend hold the door open for him. You could see the rage in his eyes that she had the audacity to do something like that. He just stood there like an idiot until she walked away. I dont think Ive ever been somewhere where the people were so comfortable expressing that you were not welcomed, even to spend $20 on burgers. But at one time I guess I could relate to their attitude. After all I am from the hipster capital of Texas ahahaha
My wife and I have considered moving to Bozeman in a few years when we get towards retirement age. I'd appreciate an answer to a few questions:
1. What is the attitude of locals towards those who move in? I heard second hand that Bozeman has experienced an influx of migrants that has strained the system and that longtime residents are not too keen on newcomers anymore.
The people who you are talking about are the old timers, and the native Montanans who also moved to Bozeman for jobs. I have found this community to be very friendly and very supportive of each other. There's always going to be the grumpy people, anywhere you go. Join the AskBozeman Facebook page to get a real feel for the people. People are coming here in droves, so you will be in the same boat as many.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
2. We'd be coming from Utah. I know it is colder there. Are winters cold to the point of being unendurable?
My wife's family is from Utah, and the climate is VERY comparable, and just as cold, but for a bit longer. I love it, and see each new snowfall as a challenge. It was like -35 here for AWHILE a few weeks back. That was pretty brutal. I manage property, and we had so many pipes freeze.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
3. Are prices (real estate, gasoline, groceries, insurance) higher than normal?
Real estate yes, gas average, and insurance no. Real estate is crazy expensive right now, with no sign of going down. If you need a realtor, I am licensed, and have 20 years experience in the business as an investor and manager.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
4. What is medical care in Bozeman like?
Excellent. Bozeman Deaconness is an amazing hospital where both my children were born. They have a full cancer treatment center, with cancer research being done in cooperation between Montana State University just down the hill, and the hospital right on top of the hill. People mainly hate Bozeman Deaconness because, well, the care is expensive, and so far it is the only major hospital. Billings Health is opening another hospital in between Belgrade and Bozeman, last I heard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
5. I know there is much outdoor recreation in the area. Are there any art or cultural type activities?
Of course. Summer events include the Sweet Pea Festival, and S.L.A.M. Fest, there are coffee shops full of musicians playing music (after 5ish usually), bands and a great indie music scene. And as for art... We almost have TOO MANY artists. Any place you go will have art for sale on the walls by local artists. Some amazing, some, well, just some LOL. The nature surrounding the "Valley of Flowers" is what draws artists here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
6. Is Bozeman a popular retirement destination?
Sure is, if you need help finding a great retirement neighborhood, I am a licensed realtor with 10 years of investing experience in this valley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
7. What is shopping like? Are stores abundant and plentiful?
Lots of big box stores out by 19th, and N. 7th interchanges. Downtown is beautiful, with none of the "big box" atmosphere. It is amazing to take my family downtown, shop at local art stores, eat at a local restaurant, and then catch a play or movie at the Ellen. You can't ask for a better downtown!
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
I'd appreciate hearing negatives as well as positives.
Negatives: So far the City and county have been very slow on regulating the uncontrolled growth in the county and there is a major shortage of housing in the city (again I can help you find a home, but when one is listed, it usually sells in a few days). Causing lots of sprawl, which is basically extending to Belgrade. When I first moved here, 19th was just paved. Real estate is crazy expensive, but you probably know that if you've been looking. Winters can get pretty long unless you're an avid skier, or have indoor hobbies. I can honestly say that is all I can think of, which would affect you.
Positives: Where to start? Best agricultural soil in the state. A huge community of gardeners, using both traditional and "permaculture" methods. Take a hiking trail through the middle of town, from downtown to the Museum of Rockies, and you will find community gardens. This town has been a dream to raise a family in, there are 22 million contiguous acres stretching between Bozeman, MT all the way down to Jackson Hole, WY. National parks, national forests, various other blocks of public land. Montana State University. The neighborhoods in many parts look like they are out of a Norman Rockwell painting. The people smile at you. There are a lot of young bloods in town which keep us all younger at heart (40% between 18-30). My daughter's school is nationally recognized as one of the best in the country (Longfellow). You can be in federally designated wilderness in 30 minutes. Hollywood movies have been made about our fishing. Big game running through the town. There is no end to the outdoor activities. Much more.
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One town that I really liked was Hamilton and I hear a lot of negative about Hamilton. However, I had friends there and used to go visit. I didn't have to live there, I didn't have to put up with, or actually didn't see any clickish attitudes, but I could certainly see where it could be.
