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Got a 2011 Dodge Ram 1500. 2WD, RWD w/limited slip diff. 410 ft-lbs of torque.
Given this vehicle, what would you recommend for winter driving in and around Bozeman? Add weight in the back naturally, but would you go with studs vs stud-less, cables, chains, or any combination thereof (meaning have different stuff for different scenarios)? Seems most folks keep chains on hand for emergencies no matter what, so what about the rest of the time? What will do 90% of the time and what will I need less (but still need)? Is there one I can totally do without? How might this change if we were to end up in Belgrade or Livingston and commute in?
What's ok there around town might not do if I want to get into the surrounding national forests, etc. A big part of why I'm going to be there is for getting out and taking advantage of all the great outdoor recreational opportunities, and winter's too long not to do it then also. Or when you have the spring thaw and it gets muddy or what not, what then? Are the trail heads going to be hard to get to, or are the roads good getting into there? Is anywhere I'd realistically be going in winter (nothing insane) going to justify more truck? Is 2WD going to be useless? Will 4WD just get me stuck in a more remote place? If I want to go do some snowshoeing, maybe try a little skiing...
I've seen the foldable and roll up-and-stow traction mats that are out there - anyone use them? Good, bad, indifferent?
Basically, bought my truck last November, love it and would hate to part with it, but wondering if I need to trade it in before I get to Montana? From everything I've read here and elsewhere, it sounds like I'd be able to make it work in and around town, but what if I want to venture a bit further?
You asked what people do 90% of the time? They drive around normally on dry roads.
2 wheel drive is fine and rear wheel drive is even better, imo, than front wheel drive. With front wheel drive vehicles, on an icy hill and they break loose, they can't steer. With rear wheel drive on an icy hill and you break loose? Let off the gas and regroup, you can still steer.
I would put about 4 bags of sand in the back for winter travel. I used to get a truck innertube and cut it so I had two pieces shapped like a "C". Bunch up an end and tie it with wire. Now shovel it full of sand. Bunch up the other end and tie it with wire. Do the same with the other half. They are heavy, about 150-200 lbs. Lay one over top of each wheel well. Whatever you do, add weight. With the sand idea, should you get stuck on ice, you can always untie the wire and grab a couple handfuls of sand and throw under the tires. Carry a scoop shovel and if you get stuck, all the snow you shovel should be thrown in the back to give you even more weight.
I carry chains in case I have to use them to get home. I DO NOT chain up to go somewhere, only to get back. With chaines, you are limited to about 25 mph. Chains are for heavy snow. Cables are not limited to 25 mph, I have run 70 with cables on and if you hit a dry patch on the road, don't even slow down, the cables can handle it. But cables won't work in snow 12" plus, as well as chains. Cables work outstanding on packed snow and ice.
For National Forest, I cannot answer to trailhead and stuff, however, the same advice I gave above, still holds. Use chains to get OUT of trouble. If you get up there on a trail and you get stuck, but you want to go further, put on the chains to get through that rough area and then take them off again to continue. Sounds like a lot of work but if you think about the truck drivers up in Williston going in and out of well sights, they'll put on chains and take them back off, 8 or 10 times a day during the spring.
I would recommend a good set of all terrain tires that you can run all year. I run BFGoodrich, All Terrain TA's. I drive a Ford 4wd and they are notoriously hard on tires. I till get 60,000+ miles out of a set and sometimes 80,000 miles. They are outstanding on snow and ice. One time I had my 33' gooseneck flatbed on behind. Was going after bales of hay. The field I drove out through was deep in snow and I did lock in 4 wheel drive. Keep in mine, I have 9 inches of lift in my truck, so clearence is better. I got into snow that was deep enough that it was pushing up over my hood. I went in about 300 yards through that snow, loaded the trailer 7 high with bales and came back out. I didn't chain up. Those tires are that good. Also, my truck has a steel flatbed, and I hold 146 gallons of fuel, so I have lots of weight. Truck, empty, weighs a tad over 8700 with no fuel, so fuel it up and it's close to 10,000 lbs. It will pretty much get me anywhere I "need" to go, and most times it gets me where I "Want" to go. BFG All Terrains are steel belted radials and an outstanding, self cleaning tire that is very very quiet on the highway. Rain, snow, and ice is fantastic. One time I was pulling my trailer on the interstate and it had rained and then frozen. I run 45 mph, in 2 wheel drive and stayed on the crown of the road. My trailer was at about a 25-30 degree angle because it was sliding sideways, but I kept right on rolling at 45. Run that way for about 2 hours before I got to dryer conditions.
To me, studs can be a waste of time and money. If you run 75, chances are you'll throw most of the studs out anyway. If you lived on a steep hill and ice was a constant problem, studs would be great. But for most folks, you will actually wish you had studs, about twice a year for about 10 minutes.
Remember, "Half your speed, and double your stopping distance" on snow and ice. Your vehicle has 4 wheel brakes, so you already have 4 wheel stopping power. Too many people think that with a 4 wheel drive, they can take off and stop better. NO THEY CAN"T! They can take off better, but stopping is exactly as it always has been.
Add weight
Good tires
Carry chains or cables
Drive safe, there is no place you HAVE to be when the weather is nasty. Buy an extra bottle of wine, bring in extra firewood when the weatherman says it's going to be nasty. When the big storm hits, pour a glass, add a log, put your feet up and giggle about the idiots that are trying to drive around in this crap.
You asked what people do 90% of the time? They drive around normally on dry roads.
Sure they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
I would put about 4 bags of sand in the back for winter travel. I used to get a truck innertube and cut it so I had two pieces shapped like a "C". Bunch up an end and tie it with wire. Now shovel it full of sand. Bunch up the other end and tie it with wire. Do the same with the other half. They are heavy, about 150-200 lbs. Lay one over top of each wheel well. Whatever you do, add weight. With the sand idea, should you get stuck on ice, you can always untie the wire and grab a couple handfuls of sand and throw under the tires. Carry a scoop shovel and if you get stuck, all the snow you shovel should be thrown in the back to give you even more weight.
My Ram 1500 has those Ram Boxes on either side over the wheels, so you can't lay anything over the wheel wells in the traditional sense - they've enclosed that space and made it into additional storage. The boxes are rated to 100 lbs per side, and have drain plugs fore and aft of the wheels. Could be a great sand dispenser if you carried loose sand in there - and it's not like it would go anywhere or shift much (especially given the shape of floor of the box space), but then you'd lose that lockable, weatherproof storage that's so nice for keeping the cab uncluttered. Sounds like that's only about half the weight you're recommending I should have, too, but if those weight 150-200 lbs, it would be too much to go inside the boxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
I carry chains in case I have to use them to get home. I DO NOT chain up to go somewhere, only to get back. With chaines, you are limited to about 25 mph. Chains are for heavy snow. Cables are not limited to 25 mph, I have run 70 with cables on and if you hit a dry patch on the road, don't even slow down, the cables can handle it. But cables won't work in snow 12" plus, as well as chains. Cables work outstanding on packed snow and ice.
How often do you need to deal with 12" + snow though? And I imagine you wouldn't want to run cables for long on a dry road? I guess my snow depth question is pointless really - I'm going to want to run cables and need to have chains just in case. So it's not either or, it's which and when.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
I would recommend a good set of all terrain tires that you can run all year. I run BFGoodrich, All Terrain TA's. I drive a Ford 4wd and they are notoriously hard on tires. I till get 60,000+ miles out of a set and sometimes 80,000 miles. They are outstanding on snow and ice. One time I had my 33' gooseneck flatbed on behind. Was going after bales of hay. The field I drove out through was deep in snow and I did lock in 4 wheel drive. Keep in mine, I have 9 inches of lift in my truck, so clearence is better...
Mine is not lifted, 2WD, no locker (LSD though). Also not near as heavy as yours. I've seen different stories about the BFG's for this purpose (I used to run them and loved them, but it wasn't for this). It would be great to have a year-round tire, but I'm going to feel lots better getting a dedicated snow tire. Studs would make me feel even better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
To me, studs can be a waste of time and money. If you run 75, chances are you'll throw most of the studs out anyway. If you lived on a steep hill and ice was a constant problem, studs would be great. But for most folks, you will actually wish you had studs, about twice a year for about 10 minutes.
From what I've read, they increase the stopping distance needed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElkHunter
Drive safe, there is no place you HAVE to be when the weather is nasty... Buy an extra bottle of wine, bring in extra firewood when the weatherman says it's going to be nasty. When the big storm hits, pour a glass, add a log, put your feet up and giggle about the idiots that are trying to drive around in this crap.
I wonder what my employer is going to say to that.
My Ram 1500 has those Ram Boxes on either side over the wheels, so you can't lay anything over the wheel wells in the traditional sense - they've enclosed that space and made it into additional storage. The boxes are rated to 100 lbs per side, and have drain plugs fore and aft of the wheels. Could be a great sand dispenser if you carried loose sand in there - and it's not like it would go anywhere or shift much (especially given the shape of floor of the box space), but then you'd lose that lockable, weatherproof storage that's so nice for keeping the cab uncluttered. Sounds like that's only about half the weight you're recommending I should have, too, but if those weight 150-200 lbs, it would be too much to go inside the boxes.
You don't have to put them there. I just did it that way so that it was out of the way and I could slide things in and out of the bed. People like front wheel drive because of the traction. Where do they get the traction? The engine setting on top of the drive wheels. So if you add weight, your going to want about 400 lbs. It's not going to deteriate gas milage, it's like hauling 2 more people.
Quote:
How often do you need to deal with 12" + snow though? And I imagine you wouldn't want to run cables for long on a dry road? I guess my snow depth question is pointless really - I'm going to want to run cables and need to have chains just in case. So it's not either or, it's which and when.
Thankfully, not often, but you mention going up and running around on Forestry roads. I have run cables on a 300 mile trip, the entire way. I crossed patches of dry road that were a couple hundred yards long, and there were a couple every mile. Didn't show any wear on the tires, or the cables. But at least I was legal because the chain law was in effect. You can put cables on in less than a minute per tire, they're easy, and you can run good speeds. I have chains in my truck, and I used to have cables in the trunk of the car (no chains) because if the snow was over 8 inches deep, the car was bottoming out and floating the pan, anyhow.
Quote:
Mine is not lifted, 2WD, no locker (LSD though). Also not near as heavy as yours. I've seen different stories about the BFG's for this purpose (I used to run them and loved them, but it wasn't for this). It would be great to have a year-round tire, but I'm going to feel lots better getting a dedicated snow tire. Studs would make me feel even better.
Of course, it's up to you, but I've been tooling around the Big Horn Mountains for about 15 years on BFG's, and never once wish for something different. Around my neck of the woods, we don't get ice unless snow melts and then freezes again. But "Ice Storms" are unheard of in the Rockies. Not like the Columbia River of Oregon/Washington, or Dallas/Ft. Worth area. We get snow. So like I said, studs would come in handy a couple times a year. Experience is your best asset, above and beyond any tire. In reference to stopping on studs, sometimes, studs can cause you to skate, but normally will give you great stopping power (still not the same as dry road though )
Quote:
I wonder what my employer is going to say to that.
Hey, if you can't get to work, chances are neither can he.
Got a 2011 Dodge Ram 1500. 2WD, RWD w/limited slip diff. 410 ft-lbs of torque.
Given this vehicle, what would you recommend for winter driving in and around Bozeman? Add weight in the back naturally, but would you go with studs vs stud-less, cables, chains, or any combination thereof (meaning have different stuff for different scenarios)? Seems most folks keep chains on hand for emergencies no matter what, so what about the rest of the time? What will do 90% of the time and what will I need less (but still need)? Is there one I can totally do without? How might this change if we were to end up in Belgrade or Livingston and commute in?
What's ok there around town might not do if I want to get into the surrounding national forests, etc. A big part of why I'm going to be there is for getting out and taking advantage of all the great outdoor recreational opportunities, and winter's too long not to do it then also. Or when you have the spring thaw and it gets muddy or what not, what then? Are the trail heads going to be hard to get to, or are the roads good getting into there? Is anywhere I'd realistically be going in winter (nothing insane) going to justify more truck? Is 2WD going to be useless? Will 4WD just get me stuck in a more remote place? If I want to go do some snowshoeing, maybe try a little skiing...
I've seen the foldable and roll up-and-stow traction mats that are out there - anyone use them? Good, bad, indifferent?
Basically, bought my truck last November, love it and would hate to part with it, but wondering if I need to trade it in before I get to Montana? From everything I've read here and elsewhere, it sounds like I'd be able to make it work in and around town, but what if I want to venture a bit further?
You will see few if any 2WD trucks in Bozeman-if I had one I would run studs with plenty of weight in the back during the winter. I have used both studless and studded snow tires-IMO even the fancy ones like Blizzaks are not as good as studded tires, except for being quieter.
There are plenty who say studs are overkill, but slipping and sliding your way around is no fun.
For instance I would not want to drive up Hyalite in the winter with a 2WD vehicle (or 4WD for that matter) which did not have a good set of snow tires-this is a fairly steep very icy road at times, but leads to great snow shoeing and cross country skiing (good ice fishing as well I have heard). If you want to participate in Winter activities 4WD with snow tires in the only way to go IMO. Gearing down is really important too.
If it were me I would consider trading your truck before you came out here because 2wd trucks are in very low demand here-not to say anything bad about a 2wd truck-my in laws live in FL and that is all they need.
It gets icy here and the snow can pile up-and getting to some of the more remote trail heads in the West often require 4WD vehicle . 4WD/AWD gives you a certain peace of mind especially if you are a conservative driver. Would not give ours up for anything. Having that security of all wheels getting traction is priceless.
There are plenty of people ( no disrespect intended) who will say "I drove x amount of years in my 2wd drive vehicle and never needed snow tires etc. Don't believe it!
I just took a look at Bozeman through Google Earth, Street view. I picked an area with apartment houses so I could see vehicles. In the first 200 vehicles, I saw 7 that were 4 wheel drive. Hmmmm. Does that mean the other 193 people stay home all winter because the absolutely can't get out? Obviously not, they still get out and about. It's the National Forest roads that will get you, if anything. It's certainly not the town.
I biked all over Bozeman during the nasty winters of '72 and '73. You learn (very quickly and usually the hard way) to only use the rear brake on snow/ice but otherwise no worries.
I have those BFGoodrich A/T tires on my old 2WD truck too (Costco runs a deal, four tires $70 or $80 off, a couple times a year, and it usually includes 'em), only had 'em out on snow/ice once but it was nasty stuff freezing into gloppy ice on the road, thick and slick, had to take it easy but was never in danger of slipping off the road. As Elk says they last decently and road noise isn't bad.
I drove a Honda Prelude and a Dodge Neon the entire time I lived in Bozeman. The truck will get you around town and will be good to go out in about in the mountains around town as well.
Sorry it took me this long to get back to this, and thanks a bunch for all your comments...
Since posting, my original tires started cupping/chopping and the ride was pretty rough. The front end checked out fine - did some checking and those tires are notorious for having issues (Goodyear Wranglers). So I had them replaced with BFG All-Terrain TA KO's. Lots of folks get around 70K miles on a set of those if they do things right.
Ok, cables vs. studs - what does everyone think? Can you run studs at highway speeds or will you throw 'em? Are cables as good as studs?
I do plan to take the bus into MSU when ever possible.
I know a lot of folks are making it around Bozeman with 2WD, but I suspect we may be talking apples and oranges here? I have a RWD truck (so lighter in the back) with a powerful motor (driven conservatively though) that makes lots of torque. I really don't expect that I will engage in any skiing or snowboarding, but we'd probably do a little sledding and some hiking with snowshoes (even camping).
I'm thinking it would be nice to get a beater 4WD just for this - something I could park at a trail head and not worry too much about. Got many problems with theft at the trail heads? I keep tabs on the Bozeman Daily Chronicle's website, and some times Bozeman sounds a little too exciting for a town of it's small size. "Transient" camps, somebody chucking bricks through windshields, etc., etc.
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