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Yep, a large part of why passenger rail in the US has poor service in regards to peer developed countries isn’t just distance among cities as there are several corridors that can ostensibly be successful—it’s also because Amtrak is designed to be poor and constantly looking for money while the much more heavily subsidized airline and road networks are not. Improvements are often done in small piecemeal fashion that are ultimately more expensive in terms of cost benefit than doing farther reaching projects and basic maintenance is often hobbled.
A main function of infrastructure is to grease the wheels of the economy which is why governments usually find such to be essential investments. However, we have structured our infrastructure funding to neglect passenger rail even when it comes to sensible corridors. There’s a sort of dog whistle that gets emitted when it comes to passenger rail and Amtrak especially even when projects are laid out that have projections that are favorable towards the goal of boosting the economy. One of the most egregious examples is the 3C corridor linking the major cities of Ohio that was to be embarked upon during the recession as stimulus spending with an eye towards progressing economic development. The initial projections suggested good ridership for the route, but the opposition focused on the average speed and travel time from Cincinnati to Cleveland.
This was part of the rallying cry for Kasich’s successful gubernatorial bid— snail train, though there were end to end routes that were obviously shorter hops than the end and end trip and that there are different advantages to rail riding that courts riders that would be willing to exchange an hour longer trip for the end to end than driving. That initial study for corridor speed was a first look of sorts and that was favorable enough to greenlight funding for a deeper study. While this more exhaustive study was being conducted, Kasich was elected, and then afterwards the more exhaustive study was released and the projected end to end trip time ended up significantly shorter and the average speed including station stops was higher than first estimated. It didn’t matter though as that was part of the election platform even though a central thrust for the criticism, one that was arguable in the first place in terms of its effects, had mostly eroded. It didn’t matter though and the whole endeavor was abandoned after the time and effort trying to put it on track. Meanwhile, rideshare solves a lot of last mile problems and a major portion of the corridor that line would have served might actually have its tracks downgraded for slower operation which means another round to get it back up might actually find itself working with tracks even less ready for passenger rail than the first time around and consequently take more time and money to get things up to speed.
Don't remind me... Kasich and that whole kill the 3-C Amtrak proposal makes my blood boil and will always prevent me from viewing Kasich as this reinvented "Mister Moderate" in the face of Donald Trump (OK Kasich did support Obamacare, but still...). Kasich fed on the strong right-wing elements that have converted Ohio from a moderate purple state to a knuckle-dragging right-wing, solid red state that's gone hard for Trump republicans. Michigan, after that thin Trump victory margin in 2016 (which I still largely believe was manufactured/stolen), has returned to its moderate, left-leaning self in the 2018 races, and why Michigan is a much better candidate for HSR than Ohio, which very may opt for a return to the horse-and-buggy in a few years.
Yes, you're right -- many big city train stations/terminals were built away their downtowns. I suspect a part of it was because of the soot and smoke of the steam engines which were train mainstays when most of these terminals were established made these terminals incompatible with dense, pristine downtown buildings.
Cleveland was one of the rare cities (along with New York) to build its terminal, Union Station/Terminal Tower (now Tower City) right in the core of the CBD. One reason is that both Tower City and NYC's Grand Central and Penn Station opened using electric trains hauling passenger cars in and out; Cleveland specifically banned steam engines from Terminal Tower but, then, diesel engines became less of an issue esp given Cleveland's overall light schedule. But then Cleveland, in its infinite wisdom, decided to abandon Tower City completely as a rail passenger terminal (only the city's rapid transit system still uses it as such), and moved to a small building, with 1 platform, to handle the, now, 2 Amtrak round trips that pass through in the wee hours of the morning. The old union station waiting area has been expanded and trasformed into The Avenue at Tower City shopping mall, which has been struggling to keep any quality stores in recent years despite maintaining its beauty and functionality in its connectivity to hotels, office buildings and sports arenas ... and the Rapid, of course.
Chicago also has its "Union Station" in its CBD. The Loop is right there and in the shadow of the Sears (Willis) Tower. It also has been getting restored. The restoration and adding a extra exterior skylight to its Great Room is complete. Including the Great Room. Still very busy for even commuter trains from suburbs and Amtrak of course....
Chicago also has its "Union Station" in its CBD. The Loop is right there and in the shadow of the Sears (Willis) Tower. It also has been getting restored. The restoration and adding a extra exterior skylight to its Great Room is complete. Including the Great Room. Still very busy for even commuter trains from suburbs and Amtrak of course....
Chicago's Union Station is very close to the City's core, but still a bit off to the side. Note, it is across the Chicago River (south branch) from the Loop and the nearest L station is 3 blocks away. I'm guessing when it was built, it was considered just outside the business district but that, over time, downtown spread over to the station area -- not unlike how downtown Chicago grew north along what was Michigan Avenue's north extension in (I'm assuming) the post WWII era into the 1970s and 80s... I am curious as to Union Station's history. It is one of the classic, huge old-style station with a lot of Art Deco architecture. I'm curious as to how it's platforms are underground but, to my knowledge, never electrified. Do you know the history behind this?
Chicago's Union Station is very close to the City's core, but still a bit off to the side. Note, it is across the Chicago River (south branch) from the Loop and the nearest L station is 3 blocks away. I'm guessing when it was built, it was considered just outside the business district but that, over time, downtown spread over to the station area -- not unlike how downtown Chicago grew north along what was Michigan Avenue's north extension in (I'm assuming) the post WWII era into the 1970s and 80s... I am curious as to Union Station's history. It is one of the classic, huge old-style station with a lot of Art Deco architecture. I'm curious as to how it's platforms are underground but, to my knowledge, never electrified. Do you know the history behind this?
The Loop is still right there. Downtown and official maps of Chicago's CBD by the city's own link. Has the CBD to a block west if the expressway. That includes the blocks of Union Station today. It is why suburban commuters use it too.
Clearly in the downtown mix..... just not the heart of the core.
Union Station even as a 700-ft skyscraper approved to build on its property.
Here showing the new 50-story skyscraper next to Union Station... to start construction next year.
Photo shows its location from above and where the skyscraper will be.
Cleveland was one of the rare cities (along with New York) to build its terminal, Union Station/Terminal Tower (now Tower City) right in the core of the CBD. One reason is that both Tower City and NYC's Grand Central and Penn Station opened using electric trains hauling passenger cars in and out; Cleveland specifically banned steam engines from Terminal Tower but, then, diesel engines became less of an issue esp given Cleveland's overall light schedule. But then Cleveland, in its infinite wisdom, decided to abandon Tower City completely as a rail passenger terminal (only the city's rapid transit system still uses it as such), and moved to a small building, with 1 platform, to handle the, now, 2 Amtrak round trips that pass through in the wee hours of the morning. The old union station waiting area has been expanded and trasformed into The Avenue at Tower City shopping mall, which has been struggling to keep any quality stores in recent years despite maintaining its beauty and functionality in its connectivity to hotels, office buildings and sports arenas ... and the Rapid, of course.
I don't think it's necessary to have a main train station in the CBD to implement proper train service between Chicago-Detroit-Toronto. Michigan Central Station is where it is because of the rail alignment with Windsor and the underwater tunnel, and that's not going to change for a very longtime. Plenty of cities have multiple train stations within the city not in a CBD (NYC's Penn and Grand Central are not in Lower Manhattan), and the Amshack in New Center could be renovated to handle greater passenger loads and be worthy of laying in the shadows of the Fischer Building and Cadillac Place. A New Center depot and Corktown depot would serve greater Detroit very nicely IF there was better public transit within the city...
I've been railing on the Qline since before the Qline was even running, as it was obviously not going to be rapid urban transit. It doesn't promote densification of the urban core nor does it strengthen the CBD. Much to the chagrin to everyone I've suggested it to, Detroit has one of the most advance pieces of rapid urban transit in the country, the People Mover, which has been criminally neglected for years. People Mover technology has high upfront cost, but lower legacy costs than any of the currently unusable subways in the East Coast cities. Think about it, that mile long loop downtown has been running non-stop for the last 30 years, no matter how hard the city and metro area tried to neglect it, and the thing still hits every station on time +/-30 seconds.
I've suggested reasonable piecewise expansions of the current system from Downtown to New Center using public/private partnerships. The City provides the trackage and right-of-ways, and the Casinos, Stadiums, Universities, Hospitals, and larger employers provide the stations for the expanded People Mover. I drew up something like this years ago.
With People Mover lines like the ones drawn above, one could get from Grand Circus to New Center in 10-15 minutes, and enabling rapid transit in the urban core would take densify Midtown and New Center so that they'd looks something more like a cross between Philly's Center City and Vegas's Strip. Another sprue could be implemented piecewise from the People Mover hub at Grand Circus to run towards Corktown/Mexicantown/Downriver/DTW. Voila! Detroit is a modern city, with a modern airport, regional rail connectivity, affordable housing, and modern rapid public transit where the Creative Class and Fortune 500 companies fight tooth and nail for real estate, and only at thecost of a billion dollars....
Of course the Big 3 may not want to see this kind of investment with automated carsharing on the "horizon", but regardless rapid public transit packs more people in less space than an carsharing could provide, and bumper to bumper traffic on Woodward is still the same regardless if there's a cabbie or a robot at the wheel.
As for HSR (150+ mph) between Detroit and Chicago, I'm pretty Bearish. Chicago/Fort Wayne/Toledo is the HSR corridor of choice due to geography and cost of implementation. But hey, 110 mph service to all of Southern Michigan's urban centers is not bad and some Detroit/Ann Arbor => Toledo or Jackson => Fort Wayne sprues to connected Michigan service to a National High Speed Network is almost just a good.
Last edited by michikawa; 12-20-2018 at 07:07 AM..
I don't think it's necessary to have a main train station in the CBD to implement proper train service between Chicago-Detroit-Toronto. Michigan Central Station is where it is because of the rail alignment with Windsor and the underwater tunnel, and that's not going to change for a very longtime. Plenty of cities have multiple train stations within the city not in a CBD (NYC's Penn and Grand Central are not in Lower Manhattan), and the Amshack in New Center could be renovated to handle greater passenger loads and be worthy of laying in the shadows of the Fischer Building and Cadillac Place. A New Center depot and Corktown depot would serve greater Detroit very nicely IF there was better public transit within the city...
I've been railing on the Qline since before the Qline was even running, as it was obviously not going to be rapid urban transit. It doesn't promote densification of the urban core nor does it strengthen the CBD. Much to the chagrin to everyone I've suggested it to, Detroit has one of the most advance pieces of rapid urban transit in the country, the People Mover, which has been criminally neglected for years. People Mover technology has high upfront cost, but lower legacy costs than any of the currently unusable subways in the East Coast cities. Think about it, that mile long loop downtown has been running non-stop for the last 30 years, no matter how hard the city and metro area tried to neglect it, and the thing still hits every station on time +/-30 seconds.
I've suggested reasonable piecewise expansions of the current system from Downtown to New Center using public/private partnerships. The City provides the trackage and right-of-ways, and the Casinos, Stadiums, Universities, Hospitals, and larger employers provide the stations for the expanded People Mover. I drew up something like this years ago.
With People Mover lines like the ones drawn above, one could get from Grand Circus to New Center in 10-15 minutes, and enabling rapid transit in the urban core would take densify Midtown and New Center so that they'd looks something more like a cross between Philly's Center City and Vegas's Strip. Another sprue could be implemented piecewise from the People Mover hub at Grand Circus to run towards Corktown/Mexicantown/Downriver/DTW. Voila! Detroit is a modern city, with a modern airport, regional rail connectivity, affordable housing, and modern rapid public transit where the Creative Class and Fortune 500 companies fight tooth and nail for real estate, and only at thecost of a billion dollars....
Of course the Big 3 may not want to see this kind of investment with automated carsharing on the "horizon", but regardless rapid public transit packs more people in less space than an carsharing could provide, and bumper to bumper traffic on Woodward is still the same regardless if there's a cabbie or a robot at the wheel.
As for HSR (150+ mph) between Detroit and Chicago, I'm pretty Bearish. Chicago/Fort Wayne/Toledo is the HSR corridor of choice due to geography and cost of implementation. But hey, 110 mph service to all of Southern Michigan's urban centers is not bad and some Detroit/Ann Arbor => Toledo or Jackson => Fort Wayne sprues to connected Michigan service to a National High Speed Network is almost just a good.
I like your plan, the route is herky-jerky and convoluted, but your reasoning is that if the PeopleMover has stops right at the casinos, hospitals, stadium, then those would help pay for it.
But a People Mover spur is of utmost importance, because, as you said, it is where the rail tunnel to Canada is located. The whole premise of this thread is the priority for Detroit to be a stop in the Chicago to TORONTO HSR project. Also, the Corktown train station could be the terminus of any trains coming from the airport, western wayne county, and downriver/Toledo.
However, there is nobody with that vision that is in power and has funds or significant financial backing. Also, it is unclear if your proposal is a one-way route or a two-way route.
I like your plan, the route is herky-jerky and convoluted, but your reasoning is that if the PeopleMover has stops right at the casinos, hospitals, stadium, then those would help pay for it.
But a People Mover spur is of utmost importance, because, as you said, it is where the rail tunnel to Canada is located. The whole premise of this thread is the priority for Detroit to be a stop in the Chicago to TORONTO HSR project. Also, the Corktown train station could be the terminus of any trains coming from the airport, western wayne county, and downriver/Toledo.
However, there is nobody with that vision that is in power and has funds or significant financial backing. Also, it is unclear if your proposal is a one-way route or a two-way route.
Yes, it snakes around to gather the local businesses, but if the public wanted to expand the People Mover to connect train stations without the private partners it would look like this:
Building on the freeway easements is cheap. Phase 2 assumes Ford lets the City run Michigan Central as a train station. As for now, only phase 1 is necessary for connecting commuter/Amtrak passengers with downtown. HSR would have to come after connecting the train station(s) to the CBD. The parking lot/structure at Warren would be for car commuters and event visitors.
As for the single or double tracks, with this layout the City could go with single initially to save money, they would just need to double track the intermediate stations.
The Detroit Transportation Corporation only has 12 cars, so there's no point in enlarging the system beyond their capacity. Four cars could be designated for the expansion, and eight cars for the old loop/back-up.
The great thing about the People Mover is that all the fix costs are in place. No new staffing requirements, and no new maintenance facilities. Expansions like these would cost 3-4 times the Qline, but have 50 times the utility.
Last edited by michikawa; 12-21-2018 at 07:28 AM..
Yes, it snakes around to gather the local businesses, but if the public wanted to expand the People Mover to connect train stations without the private partners it would look like this:
Building on the freeway easements is cheap. Phase 2 assumes Ford lets the City run Michigan Central as a train station. As for now, only phase 1 is necessary for connecting commuter/Amtrak passengers with downtown. HSR would have to come after connecting the train station(s) to the CBD. The parking lot/structure at Warren would be for car commuters and event visitors.
As for the single or double tracks, with this layout the City could go with single initially to save money, they would just need to double track the intermediate stations.
The Detroit Transportation Corporation only has 12 cars, so there's no point in enlarging the system beyond their capacity. Four cars could be designated for the expansion, and eight cars for the old loop/back-up.
The great thing about the People Mover is that all the fix costs are in place. No new staffing requirements, and no new maintenance facilities. Expansions like these would cost 3-4 times the Qline, but have 50 times the utility.
That alignment is too far away from the heart of Wayne State (Cass Avenue, 5 blocks and the heart of Midtown)
That alignment is too far away from the heart of Wayne State (Cass Avenue, 5 blocks and the heart of Midtown)
Cheap, Fast, Good. Pick two.
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