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- Considering moving back because 90% of our family is still within an hour of Detroit and we want to have support for our first child (and save a $&%# ton of money vs west coast)
We did this after 18 years in California. While there are things we miss, we are still glad we did it. It was so much batter to have family support for the kids. Somethings that are not weather are actually better here too.
- Walkable downtown or mainstreet with local, healthy, unique restaurants, bars and attractions
Depends on your definition, but this will substantially limit your options. Unless you have a broad definition of "downtown" and "walk-able" and "lots" .
- Safe enough for a newborn Anywhere is safe enough for a newborn. There really is not a lot of crime directed at newborn babies anyplace. The biggest threat to a newborn is his or her parents.
- Newer home options or very well kept older homes
This is contrary to the first requirement at least newer home options. You are reducing the list of options quickly.
- Around 2,400 sq ft or higher and 3 bedrooms with A more open floor plan for hosting family and friends
We discovered a traditional floor plan actually works better for hosting large groups of people.YRMV
- Within 45 minutes of Brighton, Livonia, Ferndale/Royal Oak and a large destination park area (Mayberry or a lake)
The best large park in the area is Kensington metro-park. Maybe Milford woudl work for you. It borders Kensington. Access to milford can be difficult.
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- Around 750k or under (we can technically afford any area in the state but would like to keep the house price low to save and stash money into stock)
In most areas, you will be pressed to find a house that expensive. Some of the snooty areas like Birmingham would work. Birmingham will meet your other wants, but you need a trophy wife and a fancy sports car that you do not know how to drive. Forhigher end homes like that Northville, Birmingham, Bloomfield TOwnship, Grosse Pointe, Grosse Ile Township, and then for mass produced high end homes (aka McMansions) the townships and outskirts of Northville, Nopvi, Lyon, Plymouth, : The Cit y of Troy, Macomb township,
- Decent school district (might not matter for 5 years)
Decent is not hard to find. Michigan has loads of decent to good school districts and quite a few great and excellent ones too. Anywhere with houses in your price range has really great schools except Detroit.
- Some form of local trail to exercise on or nature/park to escape to nearby.
Now we are back to Milford as probably your best option. Mayberry is jsut outside of Northville. Hines park is jsut outside of Plymouth. There are 13 total metroparks counting Kensington. All of them have trails and different attractions. Kensington has everything.
Things we don't care about:
- Traffic (west coast makes Detroit look tame)
Traffic will surprise you at times. However you will have to re-learn to drive when you move here. People tend to handle their cars well when not texting, but they are very aggressive drivers here. If you are driving below 85-90 mph you need to stay out of the left lane. Winter driving takes some re-learning too. Mostly slow down and get snow tires.
Things we want to avoid:
- Typical mcmansion suburb with nowhere to actually walk to. We crave the energy of people out and about
Wait. I thought you wanted newer homes. McMansion subs are what they build now. If you want people out and about then maybe you had best look at Ann Arbor, Midtown Detroit, maybe Ferndale or Royal Oak. Not a lot of out and about around here. Where I live, there are always a lot of people out, but they are biking, skating, running, walking fishing etc. Not just milling around or shopping). We do not have much of that in Michigan we are very car-centric.
- Older style suburbs with nothing but main drags and mini malls for miles
We have lot of those.
- Outdated areas with old signs and a car repair shop or coney on every corner
- In the boonies.
You had best come rent someplace first. I am not sure you are going to like Michigan.
Places we are aware of and think might fit:
- Birmingham (seems a little too preppy and slow. Not familiar with mainstreet)
- Royal Oak (downtown is nice but not walkable/people first)
- Plymouth (great walkable downtown but small and in the middle of nowhere)
- A safe area of Detroit? (Literally no idea here but sounds lots to do in areas like midtown)
Personally I think Birmingham is the worst kind of hell. It is very fake., very pretentious, all look at me look at me see how wealthy I have become - that means i am better than anyone else. I really dislike the place, but it does have a nice downtown area for pretentious people.
Plymouth is not at all middle of Nowhere. It is right next to Ann Arbor, right off the 275 freeway and at the edge of Hines Park. However there are only people "out and about" during festivals. Also mostly smaller older homes. Royal oak is lively at night. It is more of a get drunk and throw up place than a meander through town with your family place. Still it might fit many of your wants list.
Places we are aware of and scared of:
- Novi/Northville (would love to have our biases crushed here because it seems to hit all of the notes except suburban hell)
- Westland
Northville downtown is pretty neat. Too much of it was torn down and modernized (in the 1980s and 1990s) but there is still a lot of coolness left. It is more of a high end community Not real lively, just a small town but is has a lot going for it. Novi is just a shopping and chain restaurant mecca. No downtown just lots and lots of malls and strip malls. The only thing Westland has going for it is that it is affordable.
I hope someone out there has some insight! I know our situation is a bit unique and we have been a little spoiled by what the west coast can bring. Sadly, the west coast is also chokingly congested and the homes are incredibly overpriced for the comfort (or lack therof) of what you get.
Happy to trade west coast advice as well!
I think your best option is probably Ann Arbor. Milford or Brighton might appeal to you some. Northville would be a pretty good match if you are in town. Plymouth might work if you can find a house big and nice enough in town for you. No point in living on the outskirts of any of these cities, you pay more and without the benefit. You ought to consider Grosse Pointe City as well.
You will like Midtown a lot,but probably not as a place to live. Downtown Detroit is very cool too but again mostly condos and apartments. There are some majorly cool homes (esp Indian Villiage and Boston Edison neighborhoods) but they are surrounded by blight that may make you uncomfortable.
Additional places to consider that yo umight like despite missing many of your wants. :
Farmington; Franklin Village, Ferndale Walled Lake (no downtown though), Canton (McMansions and chain store but newer and nice with lots of shopping). Wyandote and Grosse Ile as both marvelous places for very different reasons, but do not seem like a good match for you. I tink you might like ROmeo, but it is too far out for you. Rochester City also (not hills - hills = McMansions, but the town itself is quite cool.
WE looked at every one of these places and chose Grosse Ile and are happy that we did so, but yo probably will not like it. It is very laid back/chill kind of place. Sort of ta throwback to the 1950s. Lots of weathy people but lots of middle class too. More nature oriented than town oriented. Plus too far from that area you like best.
By the way, do you want to live on water? You can certainly afford it and if you do, that opens a new list.
Last edited by Coldjensens; 11-24-2021 at 09:07 AM..
They are coming from the West Coast. They will laugh at our puny taxes. Taxes are adjusted upon a sale in most states
But do most states have a system where taxes can jump as much as they can here if a house hasn't changed hands in decades? How many states have a system like we do where tax increases are capped yearly?
And my research indicates Michigan property tax rates are higher than California overall.
And no matter where you come from its nice to be aware as you are looking at houses what will happen to the taxes.
I know what you want, and it's the vibrancy of a downtown that is diverse culturally and racially, and there's only a few that even come close. The entire downtown of Ann Arbor is no bigger than a Chicago neighborhood, and you will have explored most of it within a month. Michigan was hurt so badly by the automotive decline that even your dedicated democrats are fiscally conservative, fear crime, and live in isolated segregated areas except for just a few. Like your description of Plymouth. I would call Plymouth leans democratic definitely, but it's also mostly white people who want to be insulated from crime, yes it is.
Much of southeastern Michigan (detroit suburbs) still suffers, with pot hole streets, run down buildings, no new buildings, most everything is old here, and when it's new it's on a small scale. Ferndale, Royal Oak, Midtown, Ann Arbor come to mind, but even A2 is mostly white outside of Uni and doctors, compared to California. Southeast Michigan is not that different from what you remember, with huge areas of poverty when you compare to CA. The cultural diversity you seek is really only in some slightly rough areas, higher crime. Even downtown Ann Arbor is a rather insulated society. You won't find a Chicago neighborhood here, they don't exist, unless you're a trail blazer and can handle the greater chance of crime by moving to Midtown Detroit. I would disagree with cold jensens that Royal Oak is all about getting drunk, but there's certainly some of that as there is anywhere late at night when only bars are open, but it's baby strollers by day. For walkability score, restaurants and small shops, Royal Oak/Ferndale is a little more diverse than Plymouth, but still mostly white. Canton has a large Asian community, but you'd end up in a McMansion with no downtown.
I can't speak for Wyandotte as I don't know that area. Cold Jensen's suggestion of Milford I don't believe fits you, as you are going to find a very safe but sleepy town that rolls up the sidewalks at 9 pm. It's very much a white picket fence town.
If you don't anticipate too much from Michigan, you won't be too disappointed by Michigan. Just make sure you are ready to let go of what you have in CA for the closeness of relatives, and make sure in your own mind that it is worth the trade. I fear you being bored or disappointed, unless you move to Detroit and really become active within that community. I can guarantee you'd need private schools though, but you'd have much better chances of running into a Greek bakery, a mid-Eastern grocery, an Indian restaurant, and meeting people who really are enthused about changing Detroit. If safety for your wife walking the baby stroller by herself without getting robbed is your first concern though, Detroit is still on the outs. That's why most of us don't live there, but we love to visit for the events, festivals, concerts, restaurants, etc. I did live on the north-east side for several years and I miss the Italian influence which is non-existant on the west side.
Ann Arbor and Royal Oak are your best bets, ask your relatives directly for other suggestions. 30 minutes to downtown Brighton from A2 as long as you don't travel during rush hour when 23 North is living hell. But, driving in Michigan is usually no big deal for 45 minute drives. It's sure going to feel short driving from Ann Arbor to Royal Oak compared to anything in CA. Aggressive drivers? I don't know, I don't have anything to compare Michigan to outside of downtown Chicago I would add 696 is a racetrack during rush hour, and 275-96, 696-75 are bottlenecks.
Last edited by NoMansLands; 11-24-2021 at 12:30 PM..
We did this after 18 years in California. While there are things we miss, we are still glad we did it. It was so much batter to have family support for the kids. Somethings that are not weather are actually better here too.
Depends on your definition, but this will substantially limit your options. Unless you have a broad definition of "downtown" and "walk-able" and "lots" .
Anywhere is safe enough for a newborn. There really is not a lot of crime directed at newborn babies anyplace. The biggest threat to a newborn is his or her parents.
This is contrary to the first requirement at least newer home options. You are reducing the list of options quickly.
We discovered a traditional floor plan actually works better for hosting large groups of people.YRMV
The best large park in the area is Kensington metro-park. Maybe Milford woudl work for you. It borders Kensington. Access to milford can be difficult.
In most areas, you will be pressed to find a house that expensive. Some of the snooty areas like Birmingham would work. Birmingham will meet your other wants, but you need a trophy wife and a fancy sports car that you do not know how to drive. Forhigher end homes like that Northville, Birmingham, Bloomfield TOwnship, Grosse Pointe, Grosse Ile Township, and then for mass produced high end homes (aka McMansions) the townships and outskirts of Northville, Nopvi, Lyon, Plymouth, : The Cit y of Troy, Macomb township,
Decent is not hard to find. Michigan has loads of decent to good school districts and quite a few great and excellent ones too. Anywhere with houses in your price range has really great schools except Detroit.
Now we are back to Milford as probably your best option. Mayberry is jsut outside of Northville. Hines park is jsut outside of Plymouth. There are 13 total metroparks counting Kensington. All of them have trails and different attractions. Kensington has everything.
Traffic will surprise you at times. However you will have to re-learn to drive when you move here. People tend to handle their cars well when not texting, but they are very aggressive drivers here. If you are driving below 85-90 mph you need to stay out of the left lane. Winter driving takes some re-learning too. Mostly slow down and get snow tires.
Wait. I thought you wanted newer homes. McMansion subs are what they build now. If you want people out and about then maybe you had best look at Ann Arbor, Midtown Detroit, maybe Ferndale or Royal Oak. Not a lot of out and about around here. Where I live, there are always a lot of people out, but they are biking, skating, running, walking fishing etc. Not just milling around or shopping). We do not have much of that in Michigan we are very car-centric.
We have lot of those.
You had best come rent someplace first. I am not sure you are going to like Michigan.
Personally I think Birmingham is the worst kind of hell. It is very fake., very pretentious, all look at me look at me see how wealthy I have become - that means i am better than anyone else. I really dislike the place, but it does have a nice downtown area for pretentious people.
Plymouth is not at all middle of Nowhere. It is right next to Ann Arbor, right off the 275 freeway and at the edge of Hines Park. However there are only people "out and about" during festivals. Also mostly smaller older homes. Royal oak is lively at night. It is more of a get drunk and throw up place than a meander through town with your family place. Still it might fit many of your wants list.
Northville downtown is pretty neat. Too much of it was torn down and modernized (in the 1980s and 1990s) but there is still a lot of coolness left. It is more of a high end community Not real lively, just a small town but is has a lot going for it. Novi is just a shopping and chain restaurant mecca. No downtown just lots and lots of malls and strip malls. The only thing Westland has going for it is that it is affordable.
I think your best option is probably Ann Arbor. Milford or Brighton might appeal to you some. Northville would be a pretty good match if you are in town. Plymouth might work if you can find a house big and nice enough in town for you. No point in living on the outskirts of any of these cities, you pay more and without the benefit. You ought to consider Grosse Pointe City as well.
You will like Midtown a lot,but probably not as a place to live. Downtown Detroit is very cool too but again mostly condos and apartments. There are some majorly cool homes (esp Indian Villiage and Boston Edison neighborhoods) but they are surrounded by blight that may make you uncomfortable.
Additional places to consider that yo umight like despite missing many of your wants. :
Farmington; Franklin Village, Ferndale Walled Lake (no downtown though), Canton (McMansions and chain store but newer and nice with lots of shopping). Wyandote and Grosse Ile as both marvelous places for very different reasons, but do not seem like a good match for you. I tink you might like ROmeo, but it is too far out for you. Rochester City also (not hills - hills = McMansions, but the town itself is quite cool.
WE looked at every one of these places and chose Grosse Ile and are happy that we did so, but yo probably will not like it. It is very laid back/chill kind of place. Sort of ta throwback to the 1950s. Lots of weathy people but lots of middle class too. More nature oriented than town oriented. Plus too far from that area you like best.
By the way, do you want to live on water? You can certainly afford it and if you do, that opens a new list.
Pick a better color next time.
Last edited by jackmichigan; 11-24-2021 at 07:01 PM..
Thank you for the well thought out opinions everyone!
After traveling most of SE MI this week, we've narrowed our choices down to Royal Oak/Ferndale or Ann Arbor. These are out gut feelings:
Ann arbor - The only place that really meets all of our requirements. It doesn't have the beach but it has Argo park and Huron River. It's cold, but it has people filling the streets during the day. The only downside is the current lack of choice but that's the market in general. Oh, and cost in downtown proper.
Royal Oak - I wouldn't say it has a downtown. I'd say it has a main street that is on a major, noisy road. However it has nice new colonials under 750k and feels far enough removed from the blight of Detroit.
Ferndale - A much better downtown experience than Royal oak. The stretch on Woodward somehow feels safer and like the cars aren't as big of a deal compared to main street in Royal Oak. Its other main side street has much more interesting and unique shops and feel compared to RO as well. However, there is literally nothing available within a couple block of downtown and none seem to be new or remodeled. I'd take a new bigfoot colonial from RO here and it would feel nice.
Plymouth/Northville downtowns - Quaint. Too boring for us. Nice to walk around in but the moment you leave you are in oldschool suburbs by nothing else. Yes, you can drive anywhere near by, but the point is that if it's 15 minutes or farther from exciting things then it misses the whole point of location.
Gross point - Heard good things but it's too long of a drive from family
Wyandotte/Milford/Rochester/Etc - Sounds like they are nice but if their downtowns are smaller or less busy than Plymouth then there's no way we'd even consider it. These are the type of areas I'd be ok driving to for a day. I realize the energy of people and the innovations that come from it are more important to us.
Even though I knew not to expect a lot, I will say I am still a little disappointed with the areas. MI is my family's home and I care about it, but I see a lack of education, industry and the innovation in these areas that would come along with it (outside of Ann arbor). I'm not knocking it, and the only reason I even have this perspective is because I left and saw what areas could be like. In many ways (but not all) SE MI seems like it's about 10-20 years behind the cutting edge of the west coast.
I want to raise my kids in an area where they will be challenged and invigorated by others and it feels dangerous to do so out here. Where do I drop my kid off for coding classes? Who will they talk to, to learn about different religions, cultures and food? How will they learn what industries out there pay well so they can figure out what they want to do? Will they get bullied by kids who don't know better instead of brought up by their peers who are also on a similar track?
Again, thank you all! This has been enlightening. I feel like I learned more about my home state in 5 days than I did in 25+ years. We have a lot to think about!
Have you looked into Farmington (not to be confused with Farmington Hills)? It sees to check most of your boxes. Hear me out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
- Walkable downtown or mainstreet with local, healthy, unique restaurants, bars and attractions
- Safe enough for a newborn
Farmington is quite safe and has a walkable downtown (though you might find it too small and quaint).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
- Newer home options or very well kept older homes
- Around 2,400 sq ft or higher and 3 bedrooms with A more open floor plan for hosting family and friends
- Around 750k or under (we can technically afford any area in the state but would like to keep the house price low to save and stash money into stock)
Even in this market, you could get a 2400 sq ft house in Farmington for around 400k and pocket the rest. It will likely be an older home, but you would have plenty of money left over for renovations. Alternatively, you could buy a small ranch or bungalow for 250k, tear it down and build new.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
- Within 45 minutes of Brighton, Livonia, Ferndale/Royal Oak and a large destination park area (Mayberry or a lake)
- Some form of local trail to exercise on or nature/park to escape to nearby
Farmington is roughly 15-30 minutes from all of these areas. And only a mile from Heritage Park, which might fit the bill for large park area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
- Good mix of food which reinforces mixed cultures
- A baby Ann arbor that might be a bit too white and conservative for our personal tastes (not sure here, it's been a while)
- Go to canton for diversity and food
I want to raise my kids in an area where they will be challenged and invigorated by others and it feels dangerous to do so out here. Who will they talk to, to learn about different religions, cultures and food?
If diversity is important to you, note that Farmington is about 30% non-white (Black and Asian). That's very diverse by Metro Detroit standards. There's some good Indian and Middle Eastern cuisine in the city and in neighboring Farmington Hills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
- Decent school district (might not matter for 5 years)
Schools in Farmington are pretty good, but not great. As much as I hate to say it, in Metro Detroit, there's a tradeoff between racial diversity and "good schools". But keep in mind that test scores are strongly related to the students' parents educational achievement, not the quality of the teaching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ddrizzle
Things we want to avoid:
- Older style suburbs with nothing but main drags and mini malls for miles
- Outdated areas with old signs and a car repair shop or coney on every corner
Farmington has some of this blue collar edge by virtue of not being as trendy as places like Royal Oak and Northville, which have seen a lot of gentrification.
It does not meet some of your criteria. It's too far from Brighton (about an hour away). If you travel a mile outside of Rochester you wind up in 1960's suburban sprawl. Its downtown isn't as eclectic and funky as Ferndale, it isn't as large as Birmingham's or Royal Oaks', and you might consider its Main street too busy. The traffic during rush hour in surrounding Rochester Hills is a downside, but you claim that doesn't matter to you.
What Rochester does have are houses in your price range and housing stock that ranges from modern construction to 1960's to 1900's construction. The downtown does have a lot of foot traffic, and it has a mix of small stores and good restaurants. The school district is good, the Paint Creek and Clinton River bicycle trails goes through the city, there's large parks within the city, and six miles up the road is Stoney Creek Metropark, with a large lake, a public beach, a boat rental, walking trails, mountain biking trails, and a golf course.
My advice is to avoid the far western suburbs, far northern suburbs, etc. They are fine and incredibly safe and all, but are likely to strike you as insular, quaint, homogenous, and sleepy in general. If you were a younger college graduate without kids, I'd immediately recommend being close to Detroit (no further out than Ferndale) or in Detroit (in renovated areas like Midtown)- the city is an exciting place to be as of late, with a lot of one-of-a-kind opportunities for creatives and entrepreneurs.
However, seeing how you have kids - and the money - I'd definitely go with Ann Arbor. It's a vibrant, diverse, safe town, and your kids will get an outstanding education and better still, grow up in a very strong culture of education, seeing how Ann Arbor has been regularly rated by multiple sources as the most educated city in the United States for a large part of the last 15 or so years. Beyond that, U of M is also regularly ranked as one of the top 3 best public universities in the world, and sometimes, the very best.
One thing that I think often gets overlooked (and we have been guilty of this) is valuing the ammenities/features/priorities that you use most frequent and how you value such.
For example, being close to family.....
If you see family once a month or even once a week, there is really no meaningful difference in being 20 minutes versus 40 minutes away. I would rank other factors much higher than what is a difference of a 20 minute drive a few times a month. OTOH, if you are planning to see them multiple times a week and/or use for childcare then yes you may want to be super-close.
Same with proximity to a downtown. Are you going to use the ammenities several times a week or a few times a month? How important is that?
Walkability in Metro Detroit, has to be put into its own perspective as well. Sure being close to many of the traditional "downtowns" are walkable, but many of the inner ring suburbs are walkable for the sake of taking a walk but just not much to walk to. We lived in a part of Royal Oak that was nowhere near downtown, and was great for just talking walks after dinner or around the neighborhood but there wasn't a done of things to walk to other than a few restaurants / bars on Woodward.
I think you are right in narrowing your short-list to:
Ann Arbor
Royal Oak / Ferndale
Plymouth
Northville
Rochester
Birmingham
Can't go wrong with any of those places.
You are correct that there is just a general lack of greenspace and trails in some of the inner-ring areas like Royal Oak & Ferndale. Hence why we moved out of the area. Where I'm at now I have no shortage of Metroparks and State Rec Areas that I can run / bike into from my house.
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I would add 696 is a racetrack during rush hour, and 275-96, 696-75 are bottlenecks.
