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Old 09-26-2023, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,019,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
Please re-read. I sorted it by the first column which is the homeless population per 10,000 residents. Vermont is second at 43.1 residents per 10,000. The third column is the percentage unsheltered.
Here's the values yoinked from the appendix. Vermont is 98.4% sheltered, 1.6% unsheltered. The totals were reversed.

I am not quibbling with the overall rate, but Vermont has a robust social safety net (like most east coast states) with very few sleeping on the street.
Attached Thumbnails
Homeless population by state 2022-vermont.png  
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,352 posts, read 17,019,980 times
Reputation: 12406
And, here's a map I put together showing the proportion of unsheltered homeless by state, in 5% increments (darker means more unsheltered).

As you can see looking at this, the vast majority of homeless people in states in the Northeast like New York and Massachusetts are in shelters. In contrast, the majority of homeless people in states on the West Coast and parts of the Deep South live on the streets.

There are a number of different elements here.

1. All things considered, few homeless people will willingly sleep on the streets in areas with cold winters.

2. There are huge differences in the amount of money spent on the homeless in states with high sheltered populations and those with a low sheltered population (even "blue" states like California spend only a fraction of what NYC does).

3. The 9th Circuit (which covers much of the western U.S.) has ruled that homeless encampments cannot be taken down. As this has not been appealed to the Supreme Court as of yet, this is something that only holds in the western U.S. Cities and states elsewhere in the country are pretty much free to break up street encampments.
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Homeless population by state 2022-unsheltered-homeless-population-state.png  
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Old 09-26-2023, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Boise, ID
1,069 posts, read 785,900 times
Reputation: 2713
Getting people inside in shelters is better than camping on the streets, but the goal should be permanent housing. And this requires building a lot more affordable housing, which bumps up against restrictive zoning and NIMBYs.

Not sure why the south has a high rate of unsheltered homeless. Sure, could be climate related. But could also be a lack of funding.

On the West Coast it's mostly due to failing to expand shelter space, and an ideology that homelessness should be visible. There's an entire industry built around homeless services, and the more visible the problem the more taxpayers are willing to spend, which then flows to those working in the industry. This recently bubbled over in San Francisco, with comments from the mayor as they continue to grapple with the issue (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...18387283.php):

Quote:
“They will film our city workers. They will try to tell our workers what they can and cannot do,” she said. “These activists are the same people who hand out tents to keep people on the street instead of working to bring them indoors, as we are trying to do. And they are the same people instructing and encouraging people to refuse shelter — to remain on the street instead of going indoors.”
The 9th Circuit just clarified some points around Martin v. Boise that'll make it easier for cities to apply pressure in cases where the homeless refuse shelter.
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Old 09-27-2023, 06:15 AM
 
2,117 posts, read 1,737,739 times
Reputation: 2112
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
So the poorest state in the country has easily the lowest rate of homelessness of any state. Makes perfect sense
A lot of those red states also send there homeless over to the west coast states via bus so they don't have to deal with them.
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Old 09-27-2023, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Baltimore
21,629 posts, read 12,746,938 times
Reputation: 11221
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
DC needs to be counted as a state here, to see how high it ranks.
DC should never be counted as a state for things like thid. its a city. cities have way different dynamics than states.
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Old 09-27-2023, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,269 posts, read 10,591,685 times
Reputation: 8823
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
And, here's a map I put together showing the proportion of unsheltered homeless by state, in 5% increments (darker means more unsheltered).
Very interesting; thanks for putting that together. Definitely aligns a lot more with conventional wisdom and regional approaches to homelessness (much more proactive/aggressive with sheltering in East and Midwest, and more laissez-faire in the South and West).

Climate and individual willingness of homeless individuals to take part in sheltering certainly does play a role.
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Old 09-27-2023, 09:36 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
3,416 posts, read 2,455,136 times
Reputation: 6166
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingOutdoors View Post
Getting people inside in shelters is better than camping on the streets, but the goal should be permanent housing. And this requires building a lot more affordable housing, which bumps up against restrictive zoning and NIMBYs.

Not sure why the south has a high rate of unsheltered homeless. Sure, could be climate related. But could also be a lack of funding.

On the West Coast it's mostly due to failing to expand shelter space, and an ideology that homelessness should be visible. There's an entire industry built around homeless services, and the more visible the problem the more taxpayers are willing to spend, which then flows to those working in the industry. This recently bubbled over in San Francisco, with comments from the mayor as they continue to grapple with the issue (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...18387283.php):



The 9th Circuit just clarified some points around Martin v. Boise that'll make it easier for cities to apply pressure in cases where the homeless refuse shelter.
Building more affordable housing will do nothing for homelessness until to address the root cause of mental illness and substance abuse addiction.
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Old 09-27-2023, 09:41 AM
 
Location: 32°19'03.7"N 106°43'55.9"W
9,375 posts, read 20,793,722 times
Reputation: 9982
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
And, here's a map I put together showing the proportion of unsheltered homeless by state, in 5% increments (darker means more unsheltered).

As you can see looking at this, the vast majority of homeless people in states in the Northeast like New York and Massachusetts are in shelters. In contrast, the majority of homeless people in states on the West Coast and parts of the Deep South live on the streets.

There are a number of different elements here.

1. All things considered, few homeless people will willingly sleep on the streets in areas with cold winters.

2. There are huge differences in the amount of money spent on the homeless in states with high sheltered populations and those with a low sheltered population (even "blue" states like California spend only a fraction of what NYC does).

3. The 9th Circuit (which covers much of the western U.S.) has ruled that homeless encampments cannot be taken down. As this has not been appealed to the Supreme Court as of yet, this is something that only holds in the western U.S. Cities and states elsewhere in the country are pretty much free to break up street encampments.
Thank you for the map and improving the thread. This makes the discussion more substanative, and I completely agree with you.
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Old 09-27-2023, 12:54 PM
 
21,884 posts, read 12,953,679 times
Reputation: 36895
Surely the fact that you can survive outdoors basically all year in the south and not so much in the north has something to do with how many are sheltered or not. Many homeless don't avail themselves of shelters simply because they don't wish to follow their rules and instead choose to camp.
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Old 09-27-2023, 02:15 PM
 
8,858 posts, read 6,856,075 times
Reputation: 8661
Quote:
Originally Posted by TacoSoup View Post
Building more affordable housing will do nothing for homelessness until to address the root cause of mental illness and substance abuse addiction.
Nothing? Of course it'll do something. A lot of homeless are on the edge based on pure economics, particularly those just hitting the streets. Of course even these people often fall into drugs and crime as a result.

Homelessness is a complex issue with a lot of factors, and duggies/insane are a big part.

We can say one thing with great certainty: Any simple answer is wrong.
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