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As I read more about this area, I don't understand why this region never became more of a metropolis.
Not that HR is not developed, it is, but it's not a major US market like a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh and it doesn't add up.
Consider that HR is located on perhaps the best harbor on the East Coast. It's ice free, large, sheltered, and has easier access to the Northeast and Southeast than Baltimore.
HR is on relatively level, fertile grounds. It also was one of the first U.S. mainland areas discovered.
So given all of these factors, how come HR never developed a major CBD or Financial District nor grew to be a metropolis like Baltimore or Pittsburgh?
Most posters will tell you that the cities need to work together. I disagree. Good, healthy, competition between cities is the only thing that spurs change around here. Well Chesapeake, I don't know, because every city has left Chesapeake in the dust IMHO, but that is another topic.
The way I see it, Virginia Beach builds a joint library with TCC, basically another main library and then Norfolk builds a 6 story library downtown. Norfolk has Chrysler Hall, so then Virginia Beach builds the Sandler Center. Virginia Beach, inevitably, builds a "downtown" to compete with Norfolk (or prevent citizens from leaving the city to enjoy downtown Norfolk, depending on who you talk to around here) That is how Hampton Roads works.
The cities will never cooperate, Virginia Beach will continue to be the largest city in Virginia, and Norfolk will continue to be the most "urban" dense city in Hampton Roads. Virginia Beach could grow to well over a million people, with the proper planning, and investment in something other than the military, but I'm not holding my breath. Chesapeake will continue to be the suburb of the region, unless the old die off and new blood takes over.
If you want Hampton Roads to grow beyond 3 million and leave metro areas of major cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Indianapolis, Columbus, OH, etc. in the dust it will never happen until it diversifies itself and invests heavily in other areas, like those cities have. If you do not want to be in the military, and aren't interested in working for the federal government, your options are slim, unless you can find work at the universities or the hospitals. So why would someone from New York move here, unless they want a change of pace or simply cannot afford to live in New York anymore. Virginia is just a shell game where people move from one city to another to enjoy a different lifestyle, but outside of Virginia, few people know what the actual cities are except for maybe Richmond, Norfolk and Charlottesville.
Most posters will tell you that the cities need to work together. I disagree. Good, healthy, competition between cities is the only thing that spurs change around here. Well Chesapeake, I don't know, because every city has left Chesapeake in the dust IMHO, but that is another topic.
The way I see it, Virginia Beach builds a joint library with TCC, basically another main library and then Norfolk builds a 6 story library downtown. Norfolk has Chrysler Hall, so then Virginia Beach builds the Sandler Center. Virginia Beach, inevitably, builds a "downtown" to compete with Norfolk (or prevent citizens from leaving the city to enjoy downtown Norfolk, depending on who you talk to around here) That is how Hampton Roads works.
The cities will never cooperate, Virginia Beach will continue to be the largest city in Virginia, and Norfolk will continue to be the most "urban" dense city in Hampton Roads. Virginia Beach could grow to well over a million people, with the proper planning, and investment in something other than the military, but I'm not holding my breath. Chesapeake will continue to be the suburb of the region, unless the old die off and new blood takes over.
If you want Hampton Roads to grow beyond 3 million and leave metro areas of major cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Detroit, Indianapolis, Columbus, OH, etc. in the dust it will never happen until it diversifies itself and invests heavily in other areas, like those cities have. If you do not want to be in the military, and aren't interested in working for the federal government, your options are slim, unless you can find work at the universities or the hospitals. So why would someone from New York move here, unless they want a change of pace or simply cannot afford to live in New York anymore. Virginia is just a shell game where people move from one city to another to enjoy a different lifestyle, but outside of Virginia, few people know what the actual cities are except for maybe Richmond, Norfolk and Charlottesville.
I respectfully disagree with the bolded. That's the kind of thing a lot of posters mean when they no cooperation or unity drags the area down. Everything the municipalities do to one up each other are just little diversions that makes a headline for a week or two and then fades away. The area lacks the long term investments in infrastructure, education, and jobs to grow and reverse brain drain because the municipalities are too busy competing with each other to build the next the next smoke show.
I respectfully disagree with the bolded. That's the kind of thing a lot of posters mean when they no cooperation or unity drags the area down. Everything the municipalities do to one up each other are just little diversions that makes a headline for a week or two and then fades away. The area lacks the long term investments in infrastructure, education, and jobs to grow and reverse brain drain because the municipalities are too busy competing with each other to build the next the next smoke show.
I don't necessarily think its right either, but that's all I've seen occur in Hampton Roads since I moved here in 2005. and somehow I think that is all we're ever going to get. The statement was satirical, because even though it is tit for tat, one up, and stagemanship, I'll take it over nothing.
At the same time, I think the criticism should be put in the perspective that there may be few examples of other metro areas (of multiple cities within the same metro), doing the same. So HR is not unique in this. Unless the area becomes one city with boroughs I'm not really sure what people expect to happen. Cities working together would ultimately improve conditions in all parties involved over time, but at the end of the day, you're hired by the city in question, not by the entire region. So you're doing whatever makes the city look good.
I've often heard that one of the reasons the cities do not consolidate is that there is more money, and more power, in being the mayor of a city, than being the president of a borough. That may be too simplistic of an argument, I guess we have to see what happens when we no longer have these diversions to mask what truly ails HR and all is brought to light.
I think you are missing my point.
I am not asking why HR doesn't "become" a major metropolis.
I am asking why HR never developed into a major metropolis with a distinguished CBD, dense downtown, skyscrapers, and population settlement like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did 150+ years ago.
Why is it HR never developed like those markets, given that HR has a better harbor, better maritime convenience to the North/South, flat, fertile land, and was one of the first established population centers?
I think you are missing my point.
I am not asking why HR doesn't "become" a major metropolis.
I am asking why HR never developed into a major metropolis with a distinguished CBD, dense downtown, skyscrapers, and population settlement like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did 150+ years ago.
Why is it HR never developed like those markets, given that HR has a better harbor, better maritime convenience to the North/South, flat, fertile land, and was one of the first established population centers?
Lack of leadership, lack of vision, lack of education, lack of connectivity, lack of effort, and too much religion.
I think you are missing my point.
I am not asking why HR doesn't "become" a major metropolis.
I am asking why HR never developed into a major metropolis with a distinguished CBD, dense downtown, skyscrapers, and population settlement like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did 150+ years ago.
Why is it HR never developed like those markets, given that HR has a better harbor, better maritime convenience to the North/South, flat, fertile land, and was one of the first established population centers?
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so I apologize if I repeat anything mentioned earlier.
First, in terms of population and the happenings of history, it is unlikely that any of the southeastern cities would have seen explosive growth occur at the same time cities did further north.
It cannot be understated that for a very long time in VA's history, the ports of Hampton Roads were explicitly for serving a substantial agricultural base, primarily in the export of tobacco. (This was true for much of the southeast, including the ports of Charleston, Wilmington, and Savannah). That there was shipbuilding and other things going on there, were always ancillary to serving the needs of agricultural commerce. After the Civil War, all of this changed, along with the economy. But, the Northeast was poised to grow from its already entrenched industrial base which benefited more readily from the recent innovations in industrial tech. At that time there were very few industrial centers in the South that could grow or take advantage of this. In fact, many areas that could have benefited lay in ruins. Thus, these areas lost out in attracting the swaths of new immigrants looking for easy factory work that caused northern cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc. to swell in population at the turn of the century, or generally lagged behind until the next wave of innovations and migration took hold. The "Sunbelt" as a whole, only recently became one of the most sought-after areas in the country. Hampton Roads is no exception in this instance.
Second, to understand the multi-nodal structural layout of an area like Hampton Roads, I think you have to look to some very unique characteristics of VA municipalities. At least since the 1800s VA has followed strict adherence to a principle called "Dillon's Rule" coupled with fully independent cities. I have no idea why they did this, but in a nutshell, the power of any VA municipality (beyond what the state legislature explicity grants) is severely limited, i.e. very, very limited annexation, no broad reaching ordinances, no rocking the boat, unless the state gov't says so. Dillon's rule has been relaxed basically everywhere else in the country, but the Commonwealth has a penchant for minding old laws.
As a result you have cities that act like counties, and counties that act like cities, but usually no one wants to work together. In VA, counties are not forced into compromise with the cities they border which are not a part of the county, and those cities cannot benefit from the counties' tax base nor may they arbitrarily annex in the way other states have allowed. In some ways this is good thing, but in other ways it breeds fiercely independent localities, even if they are really a part of the same region. In Hampton Roads, all of the cities work against each other on some level while simultaneously trying to project some unified image. It's self-defeating and there can be no agreed-upon central core where everyone is in competition. I believe that VA Beach is even trying to construct its own downtown to compete with Norfolk aside from the beachfront? It's not like LA, where even such an incorporated mini-downtown would still be a part of LA County.
For another contrast, look at Charlotte which has annexed its way to hundreds of thousands more residents, and has basically dictated to its county and region what policies need to be in place via transportation, utilities, etc. Until recently they had a free ticket to annexation and it was working quite well. Or even Nashville, with its effective city-county combined government.
Nothing like that could happen in VA, and I think that such flexibility could provide the benefit of forcing compromise and unity where none might be found otherwise. On the other hand, VA's laws have forced financial prudence on each municipality respectively, offered very clear cut standards for businesses (given that there is no need to worry about differing laws or confusing overlap of city/county codes and ordinances, etc) and innovative ways of cooperation between adjacent localities.
Plus at the end of the day, VA is still growing strong! Can't wait to be back in the state. I hope all this makes sense.
I think you are missing my point.
I am not asking why HR doesn't "become" a major metropolis.
I am asking why HR never developed into a major metropolis with a distinguished CBD, dense downtown, skyscrapers, and population settlement like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did 150+ years ago.
Why is it HR never developed like those markets, given that HR has a better harbor, better maritime convenience to the North/South, flat, fertile land, and was one of the first established population centers?
Hampton Roads is no different from the rest of Virginia. The cities you speak of are post-industrial. Even New York and Los Angeles are post-industrial, though the average person would not know that. Actually, Brooklyn still is industrial, where Manhattan is no longer, but that is a post for a different day. You can't compare post industrial cities, with older infrastructure that is automobile independent, with Virginia's automobile dependent sprawl. Virginia has ports, and the military, but it is not post industrial.
Virginia, where it is no longer dependent on agricultural industries like tobacco, is an extension of the federal government. That is one of the major industries here. So when the Midwest and the Northeast went through their industrial phase, people flocked to those regions, and those areas flourished. Cities grew hand over fist in less than 50 years. Now that those cities are on the decline, and it takes a college education to experience a quality lifestyle there, people flock to Virginia and land somewhere in the service industries.
The short answer is that Virginia isn't like other states and got along just fine on tobacco, the ports, and the military, and whatever other industries existed at the time, pre seventies. That doesn't appeal to everyone, and it might not have appealed to Blacks that weren't raised in the State, that either fled to Washington DC once the clerical jobs opened up there in the forties and fifties, or ex Southern Blacks turned "Northerners" like my father, by way of Chicago or Detroit.
Virginia is a port a lot of people have been through, but not a lot of people have stayed. I think your post implies that because America was "birthed" here, it should be the biggest and the best with the largest cities, tallest skyscrapers, etc. As plausible that would seem on the surface the reality is more complex.
A lot of this has to do with commerce. There are other ports and unfair geographical, economic, and some might argue, cultural "advantages" New York and Massachusetts have that aren't easy to explain. It's like asking why St. Louis isn't the economic powerhouse Chicago is, considering the river infrastructure, or why California ports have surpassed New York ports.
I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so I apologize if I repeat anything mentioned earlier.
First, in terms of population and the happenings of history, it is unlikely that any of the southeastern cities would have seen explosive growth occur at the same time cities did further north.
It cannot be understated that for a very long time in VA's history, the ports of Hampton Roads were explicitly for serving a substantial agricultural base, primarily in the export of tobacco. (This was true for much of the southeast, including the ports of Charleston, Wilmington, and Savannah). That there was shipbuilding and other things going on there, were always ancillary to serving the needs of agricultural commerce. After the Civil War, all of this changed, along with the economy. But, the Northeast was poised to grow from its already entrenched industrial base which benefited more readily from the recent innovations in industrial tech. At that time there were very few industrial centers in the South that could grow or take advantage of this. In fact, many areas that could have benefited lay in ruins. Thus, these areas lost out in attracting the swaths of new immigrants looking for easy factory work that caused northern cities like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc. to swell in population at the turn of the century, or generally lagged behind until the next wave of innovations and migration took hold. The "Sunbelt" as a whole, only recently became one of the most sought-after areas in the country. Hampton Roads is no exception in this instance.
Second, to understand the multi-nodal structural layout of an area like Hampton Roads, I think you have to look to some very unique characteristics of VA municipalities. At least since the 1800s VA has followed strict adherence to a principle called "Dillon's Rule" coupled with fully independent cities. I have no idea why they did this, but in a nutshell, the power of any VA municipality (beyond what the state legislature explicity grants) is severely limited, i.e. very, very limited annexation, no broad reaching ordinances, no rocking the boat, unless the state gov't says so. Dillon's rule has been relaxed basically everywhere else in the country, but the Commonwealth has a penchant for minding old laws.
As a result you have cities that act like counties, and counties that act like cities, but usually no one wants to work together. In VA, counties are not forced into compromise with the cities they border which are not a part of the county, and those cities cannot benefit from the counties' tax base nor may they arbitrarily annex in the way other states have allowed. In some ways this is good thing, but in other ways it breeds fiercely independent localities, even if they are really a part of the same region. In Hampton Roads, all of the cities work against each other on some level while simultaneously trying to project some unified image. It's self-defeating and there can be no agreed-upon central core where everyone is in competition. I believe that VA Beach is even trying to construct its own downtown to compete with Norfolk aside from the beachfront? It's not like LA, where even such an incorporated mini-downtown would still be a part of LA County.
For another contrast, look at Charlotte which has annexed its way to hundreds of thousands more residents, and has basically dictated to its county and region what policies need to be in place via transportation, utilities, etc. Until recently they had a free ticket to annexation and it was working quite well. Or even Nashville, with its effective city-county combined government.
Nothing like that could happen in VA, and I think that such flexibility could provide the benefit of forcing compromise and unity where none might be found otherwise. On the other hand, VA's laws have forced financial prudence on each municipality respectively, offered very clear cut standards for businesses (given that there is no need to worry about differing laws or confusing overlap of city/county codes and ordinances, etc) and innovative ways of cooperation between adjacent localities.
Plus at the end of the day, VA is still growing strong! Can't wait to be back in the state. I hope all this makes sense.
I'm glad you brought up annexation. I have mixed feelings about it. Cities like Columbus and Indianapolis have used annexation to give the illusion of a larger city but the majority of those cities are suburban in comparison. I would rather see interesting development within the core, than to use annexation as a crutch. We already have that here in HR with the whole Independent City thing, where there is little aesthetic differentiation between the city and county as it is.
I think you are missing my point.
I am not asking why HR doesn't "become" a major metropolis.
I am asking why HR never developed into a major metropolis with a distinguished CBD, dense downtown, skyscrapers, and population settlement like Baltimore and Pittsburgh and Philadelphia did 150+ years ago.
Why is it HR never developed like those markets, given that HR has a better harbor, better maritime convenience to the North/South, flat, fertile land, and was one of the first established population centers?
Norfolk was the clear CBD area with an incredibly dense downtown area and even areas outside of the downtown until 1960 when city leaders decided to level the majority of the older era buildings in the name of urban renewal. Additionally, Norfolk changed the street grid pattern of the downtown and eliminated many of the city blocks. Basically Granby street is what a large portion of the inner city area looked like as far as urban grid in the past. I will show you links to the pictures of Norfolk around the 1940's and 1950's that are indistinguishable from Baltimore/Philly/Pittsburgh/etc. People forget that Norfolk is an older city that was built during the same era as Philly/Baltimore/DC, so much of the original architecture/density was similar. Furthermore, Virginia Beach and Chesapeake were created in 1960 after integration was made legal in Virginia from Princess Anne County and Norfolk County, and many of the residents fled the city of Norfolk around that time to live the suburban lifestyle.
Here are some pictures of Norfolk during the 1930's/40's/50's. From my understanding, the city had a population around 300,000-400,000 at the time.
Norfolk was the clear CBD area with an incredibly dense downtown area and even areas outside of the downtown until 1960 when city leaders decided to level the majority of the older era buildings in the name of urban renewal. Additionally, Norfolk changed the street grid pattern of the downtown and eliminated many of the city blocks. Basically Granby street is what a large portion of the inner city area looked like as far as urban grid in the past. I will show you links to the pictures of Norfolk around the 1940's and 1950's that are indistinguishable from Baltimore/Philly/Pittsburgh/etc. People forget that Norfolk is an older city that was built during the same era as Philly/Baltimore/DC, so much of the original architecture/density was similar. Furthermore, Virginia Beach and Chesapeake were created in 1960 after integration was made legal in Virginia from Princess Anne County and Norfolk County, and many of the residents fled the city of Norfolk around that time to live the suburban lifestyle.
Here are some pictures of Norfolk during the 1930's/40's/50's. From my understanding, the city had a population around 300,000-400,000 at the time.
Norfolk will eventually return to that level of density, eventually building higher than before. Cities are always in a constant state of change anyway.
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