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i don't mean to get so riled up over this, so this is the last thing I'll say about this forever. There is a reason some stores are so coveted. They either have such a favored business model and grow slowly and smartly, so that when they enter a market, they have, in essence, put their stamp on it. Stores follow Nordstrom BECAUSE of this. It reduces their own risks before entering a new market. Nordstrom is notorious for taking care of the stores they already have and making them work. One does not necessarily have to revere Nordstrom to respect that about them. The other reason a store is so coveted is because of exclusivity. I do NOT mean to and am not putting down Huntsville in any way, but stores are in certain markets, and only in certain markets, because it supports their exclusive image. Look at when anythign become ubiquitous -- it dillutes its image. It becomes far less desired. Even brands are careful of this -- the higher-end brands are only carried in certain stores for several reasons; but one of those reasons being that they want to maintain their exclusive image. If you can something anywhere, it takes away its value to some degree (no matter how artificial that may be and no matter how overpriced that makes things) This is no offense to Huntsville whatsoever, but we do not have a zip code here or any surrounding area that evokes a luxury destination. That's just the way things are.
The reason why places like Saks can often have problems is that they are not smart in their growth. You'll often see a Saks enter a merket before anyone else. You'll often see Saks choose one center in a good market and all of its peers in another center. You see Saks stores close. You don't often see a Nordstrom clsoe, unless it's a relocation.
And onto the point of new centers, I can only count like one GAP in Huntsville. Granted, that is a company, like many, plagued with problems right now. But, if Huntsville can only support one GAP, how many other stores are willing to "duplicate" here? There are quite a few (Chicos, American Eagle, etc) that have two. There are quite a few that could probably sustain an additional location (Talbots, etc), but I don't believe it's alot. Issue two, as I've beat to death, is that I can't identify enough new-to-the-market stores that Huntsville can realistically get. The third issue, which I have not brought up is location. I understand Madison's growing population and affluence, but I think retailer would be very unwise to relocate to Zierdt Rd vs a far more centrally-located Bridge Street or Parkway Place. I just don't get it. I'm not good at math, but the math does not add up to me.
Again, for the final time, we have two centers that we already have that have been billed as upscale, and that do have SOME upscale presence. they have attracted new-to-the-market stores. Let's wish these the best as they have been oddly leased in some cases, and have more than enough open leases/vacancies to fill some of our voids -- things we can realistically support.
I certainly have no data on either of those centers, but just being a frequent shopper, I don't always see a whole lot of shopping going on in some cases. i see walking around. I see waiting to eat. I see going to movies. i see browsing. It doesn't help when PP has the local stores I mentioned. I can't imagine their sales per square foot being too high. This is a measure for stores deciding to come...deciding to stay...all of it.
If something comes here, I want it to be successful. I want it to be smart. I think we should demand smart growth, too. Despite all of Huntsville's specialness (we have stores a market our size wouldn't dream of having, to include things we deserve and actually can support), I think we are all too willing to jump up and down if anyone pays us attention. If they tell us they are going to be upscale and bring new-to-the-market stores, all the better. BUT...again, name for me what those are. As the previous poster said, PP bills itself as upscale, and look at some of the things it is having to bring in. I don't believe many of the things BS has will be around next year. let's demand smart growth. It will so help us in the long run. We tend to think just getting anything, anyhow, anyway we can is the answer and puts us on the map. It doesn't. Smart growth, high-performing centers, zoning, restrictions, strict adherance/approvals of plans all make us less risky and put us on the map. Once again, if the things we have leave, it's going to be a long. long, long time before they consider us again, if ever. And, other retailers are going to look at their performance as a measure/indicator for themselves as to whether we can support them.
I really admire Bayer Properties. They went in doing a modest first phase at the Summit, waited for its success. They added on and upgraded the mix, waited for its success. Etc. It was smart and well-planned growth. And it is a very high-performing center. I appreciate O&S' development and investment in Huntsville. And I know it's only been open for a year or so, but you just don't hear of it being a high-performer. I don't have numbers, and could be wrong; but I think if it were a huge success, we would hear about it. I just don't think highly specialized, once-you-go-you-have-seen-what-they-have-to-offer-for-a-season stores (Kate Spade, Brighton, Swarovski etc) are going to thrive here. I've been wrong before. I hope I am wrong. I'm just saying -- Bayer's model seems to be much better. They seem to do alot of work, look and watch and wait. Then, go for more. Now, they have been trying to retenantize to upgrade some of the offerings from the first couple phases. They have room to upgrade. I am afraid BS only has room to downgrade.
I've said more than my piece way too many times. thanks for listening.
Actually, there are two Gaps...one at Bridge Street and one at Parkway Place.
No you are wrong... Have u been to Parkway Place lately the GAP store at Parkway Place moved to Bridgestreet! At one point they were considering keeping both open but the economy killed that idea.
I really admire Bayer Properties. They went in doing a modest first phase at the Summit, waited for its success. They added on and upgraded the mix, waited for its success. Etc. It was smart and well-planned growth. And it is a very high-performing center. I appreciate O&S' development and investment in Huntsville. And I know it's only been open for a year or so, but you just don't hear of it being a high-performer. I don't have numbers, and could be wrong; but I think if it were a huge success, we would hear about it. I just don't think highly specialized, once-you-go-you-have-seen-what-they-have-to-offer-for-a-season stores (Kate Spade, Brighton, Swarovski etc) are going to thrive here. I've been wrong before. I hope I am wrong. I'm just saying -- Bayer's model seems to be much better. They seem to do alot of work, look and watch and wait. Then, go for more. Now, they have been trying to retenantize to upgrade some of the offerings from the first couple phases. They have room to upgrade. I am afraid BS only has room to downgrade.
I've said more than my piece way too many times. thanks for listening.
Again, I agree with your points but will elaborte on them.
First of all, the original phase of the Summitt included an Old Navy (which is still there) as well as a Bed, Bath and Beyond and other "run of the mill" chain stores. In later phases, The Cheesecake Factory, Tommy Bahama and Saks Fifth Avenue were added. Now, it is expected that a new phase will pursue even more of the highend and Old Navy and Bed, Bath will not be a part of the center any more (perhaps, their buildings will be redeveloped for this phase.) The point being is that Bayer Properties established the Summitt as the high end destination for greaterBirmingham first(stealing Riverchase Galleria's thunder) before pursuing Saks and Cheesecake Factory. In other words, they didn't get the cart before the horse.
On the other hand, O & S pursued Kate Spade and other high end stores before Bridge Street was established as a high end center. It would have been better if they had also gotten Brooks Brothers and some other upper end stores so that the customer who typically shops the better brands at Belk Parkway Place would be motivated to make the trip to BS. In fact for several years before BS opened, their website boasted of a high end department store to go where Barnes and Noble is now. An interesting note is that on another forum there was a link to a drawing showing the original tenant mix (those who were in lease negotiations) and Brooks Brothers and Coach were on their drawing. The problem the Kate Spade at BS suffers from is that Belk Parkway Place carries Kate Spade, too although on a limited scale.
The major question now (IMHO) is where Macy's will locate. Huntsville is one of the largest markets in the U.S. without one (Jackson, TN and Bowling Green, KY have them) and I truly expect them to pursue this market. The obvious choices would include the former Belk/McRae's (originally Pizitz) at Madison Square - a fully built store with marble floors in a dying mall; Parkway Place where they could build on the back side; Bridge Street - on the west side near where Sports Authority's bldg. is being constructed; or at the Zeirdt Rd. development. Water Stone is too far west. FYI: The former Belk bldg. at Madison Sq. is owned by the Pizitz family in Birmingham who are probably motivated to sell to get some income from a vacant property.
i don't mean to get so riled up over this, so this is the last thing I'll say about this forever. There is a reason some stores are so coveted. They either have such a favored business model and grow slowly and smartly, so that when they enter a market, they have, in essence, put their stamp on it. Stores follow Nordstrom BECAUSE of this. It reduces their own risks before entering a new market. Nordstrom is notorious for taking care of the stores they already have and making them work. One does not necessarily have to revere Nordstrom to respect that about them. The other reason a store is so coveted is because of exclusivity. I do NOT mean to and am not putting down Huntsville in any way, but stores are in certain markets, and only in certain markets, because it supports their exclusive image. Look at when anythign become ubiquitous -- it dillutes its image. It becomes far less desired. Even brands are careful of this -- the higher-end brands are only carried in certain stores for several reasons; but one of those reasons being that they want to maintain their exclusive image. If you can something anywhere, it takes away its value to some degree (no matter how artificial that may be and no matter how overpriced that makes things) This is no offense to Huntsville whatsoever, but we do not have a zip code here or any surrounding area that evokes a luxury destination. That's just the way things are.
The reason why places like Saks can often have problems is that they are not smart in their growth. You'll often see a Saks enter a merket before anyone else. You'll often see Saks choose one center in a good market and all of its peers in another center. You see Saks stores close. You don't often see a Nordstrom clsoe, unless it's a relocation.
And onto the point of new centers, I can only count like one GAP in Huntsville. Granted, that is a company, like many, plagued with problems right now. But, if Huntsville can only support one GAP, how many other stores are willing to "duplicate" here? There are quite a few (Chicos, American Eagle, etc) that have two. There are quite a few that could probably sustain an additional location (Talbots, etc), but I don't believe it's alot. Issue two, as I've beat to death, is that I can't identify enough new-to-the-market stores that Huntsville can realistically get. The third issue, which I have not brought up is location. I understand Madison's growing population and affluence, but I think retailer would be very unwise to relocate to Zierdt Rd vs a far more centrally-located Bridge Street or Parkway Place. I just don't get it. I'm not good at math, but the math does not add up to me.
Again, for the final time, we have two centers that we already have that have been billed as upscale, and that do have SOME upscale presence. they have attracted new-to-the-market stores. Let's wish these the best as they have been oddly leased in some cases, and have more than enough open leases/vacancies to fill some of our voids -- things we can realistically support.
I certainly have no data on either of those centers, but just being a frequent shopper, I don't always see a whole lot of shopping going on in some cases. i see walking around. I see waiting to eat. I see going to movies. i see browsing. It doesn't help when PP has the local stores I mentioned. I can't imagine their sales per square foot being too high. This is a measure for stores deciding to come...deciding to stay...all of it.
If something comes here, I want it to be successful. I want it to be smart. I think we should demand smart growth, too. Despite all of Huntsville's specialness (we have stores a market our size wouldn't dream of having, to include things we deserve and actually can support), I think we are all too willing to jump up and down if anyone pays us attention. If they tell us they are going to be upscale and bring new-to-the-market stores, all the better. BUT...again, name for me what those are. As the previous poster said, PP bills itself as upscale, and look at some of the things it is having to bring in. I don't believe many of the things BS has will be around next year. let's demand smart growth. It will so help us in the long run. We tend to think just getting anything, anyhow, anyway we can is the answer and puts us on the map. It doesn't. Smart growth, high-performing centers, zoning, restrictions, strict adherance/approvals of plans all make us less risky and put us on the map. Once again, if the things we have leave, it's going to be a long. long, long time before they consider us again, if ever. And, other retailers are going to look at their performance as a measure/indicator for themselves as to whether we can support them.
I really admire Bayer Properties. They went in doing a modest first phase at the Summit, waited for its success. They added on and upgraded the mix, waited for its success. Etc. It was smart and well-planned growth. And it is a very high-performing center. I appreciate O&S' development and investment in Huntsville. And I know it's only been open for a year or so, but you just don't hear of it being a high-performer. I don't have numbers, and could be wrong; but I think if it were a huge success, we would hear about it. I just don't think highly specialized, once-you-go-you-have-seen-what-they-have-to-offer-for-a-season stores (Kate Spade, Brighton, Swarovski etc) are going to thrive here. I've been wrong before. I hope I am wrong. I'm just saying -- Bayer's model seems to be much better. They seem to do alot of work, look and watch and wait. Then, go for more. Now, they have been trying to retenantize to upgrade some of the offerings from the first couple phases. They have room to upgrade. I am afraid BS only has room to downgrade.
I've said more than my piece way too many times. thanks for listening.
This is a very well put post. I've been saying the same thing about the ridiculous expectations of developers and residents of Huntsville which include BridgeStreet, Parkway place, Constellation, Madison Square, Harris Hill, Providence, Zierdt Roadt project, Waterstone and Decatur mega project as well as Jones Valley Bend and a new proposed project in Jones valley and other projects. Some of those projects have a ridiculous proposed amount of retail I believe Waterstone's retail portion was 2 million square feet plus! The mall of Georgia outside of Atlanta doesn't have 2 million square feet of retail! All of these proposed projects and I've said many times I go to BridgeStreet more than most people(usually to get drinks and food at the Monaco) and I hardly ever see anyone shopping in a lot of the stores, I see people waiting for food and a movie but I always worried about the clothing retail stores for Huntsville. I never think of Huntsville as a place where people think of high end fashion I work with engineers that dress like bums everyday (men and women) so i seriously doubt anyone will be rushing to buy Kate Spade or other high end fashion items. There obviously was a reason that Huntsville has been so "underserved" for so long like these developers keep saying, its population just isn't the type that spends a lot on high end retail despite the high salaries. Huntsville has and always has attracted people that tend to live more simple lives regardless if they are from St. Louis, California, or D.C. But Huntsville should definitely be able to support a Macy's.. I've seen Macy's in pretty small markets with mediocre median salaries. Like you said we just need to work with what we have especially in this bad economy because what I'm afraid of is there are going to be announcements soon about stores doing very poorly in BridgeStreet and they are going to have to close and Huntsville's reputation as a desirable retail destination will be severely damaged for many years to come.
Last edited by Huntsville_secede; 02-19-2009 at 09:02 PM..
Can Athens support a massive shopping center with retail that Huntsville has only one of?
If I didn't make myself clear on the question: For instance, Huntsville only has one Gap, Old Navy, and other retail stores. If Athens was to get a large shopping complex, will Gap, Old Navy, and other retail stores that the Huntsville area has one of can do good in Athens?
I agree with your point and I think many in the Huntsville area are unrealistic about what can and cannot be supported by the local market. The HSV Metro area needs to grow significantly to support a Nordstrom. However, as a Nordstrom cardholder who has visited their stores throughout the U.S., I have found their merchandise carried varies quite a bit as some markets can support more higher end merchandise than others. (For example, in Atlanta, the Perimeter Mall store carries higher grade merchandise and a greater depth of choices than the Mall of Georgia store). So, it is possible a lower grade store could locate here some day (after BHM and Nashville have at least two stores as you say), but it won't be carrying $1,000 St. Johns Knit suits in the Ladies Dept.
However, the Parkway Place Belk store's Men's Dept. carries a good portion of what Nordstrom carries but Nordstrom carries $150+ casual designer shirts which will never sell here.
Your point about supporting the existing higher end shopping centers is "spot on." When Parkway Place has never leased much of its space and is now leasing to cheap wig and knive stores which should be located elsewhere, there is not demand to support another high end center. What can be added, however, is a Macy's (perhaps, two), Brooks Brothers, Z Gallery, etc.
Also, if VonMaur is able to make it in Moline, Illinois, they can certainly make it in the Huntsville area.
FYI: Several years ago, there was an article in the WSJ stating that Saks Fifth Avenue found that many women from the Birmingham area continued ot shop at the Phipps Plaza store in ATL instead of the Summit store becasue the Summit store didn't carry a lot of the high end labels they liked. As a result they upgraded the lines at the Summit.
Huntsville, AL will NOT be getting a Nordstrom! Come on now people!
Thanks autobahn...I was just ranting to my hubby today about the lack of Academy and how much I missed it from when we lived in Tuscaloosa. Glad you brought that to my attention. Interesting little read!!!
I would love to see a Home Goods, as well as Nordstroms (please close all these Belks!!) and Whole Foods. Also, Academy Sports would be a welcome addition...I like them so much more than Dick's or Sport Authority (which is coming to Bridge Street).
I would like to see a California Pizza Kitchen and a Restoration Hardware as well. I also would love a Wolfgang Puck's Express....I talked to the manager of the one in Brentwood, and he said the owner of that franchise was considering opening one in our area!
All the "big business" aside, I also love the small businesses in our area...you can find some of the most unique things! So, keep in mind, we need to support our small businesses. I often find better quality for the same price or less than the large chain stores.
After living in and around Tuscaloosa my entire life, MM..these stores would make my transition to Huntsville worthwhile. I already have more than enough eateries and shopping places in abundance than I had back home, so these naturally would be icing on the cake. Tuscaloosa doesn't hold a candle to Huntsville in this area. I do like the smaller businesses, the local places..especially the mom and pop food places and establishments. I'm a small town girl so those are places I can identify with
Huntsville, AL will NOT be getting a Nordstrom! Come on now people!
Right...Birmingham is supposed to get one in a year or two (guess we'll see about that). It would probably be another 10 or 15 years before Huntsville got one.
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