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My point is that just because you can't make a living at it doesn't mean it's not a skill, as various people have said.
Beth, my point is there may be some skill involved, as far as counting cards or reading other players. But most of it is just luck. There are just too many variables that are beyond your control and you have no way of knowing who has what or what card is coming next. You can make a guess,speculate, narrow it down, but you never know for sure. so all you can do is play the odds. But playing odds is not the same thing as skill,imo.
Beth, my point is there may be some skill involved, as far as counting cards or reading other players. But most of it is just luck. There are just too many variables that are beyond your control and you have no way of knowing who has what or what card is coming next. You can make a guess,speculate, narrow it down, but you never know for sure. so all you can do is play the odds. But playing odds is not the same thing as skill,imo.
I'd have to agree...
Suppose you have 67 and I have 99.
Flop comes 5AA. You bet a ton on a bluff and I make the world's greatest read doubting that you have an Ace and call your all-in bet.
Then you catch a 3 on the turn and 4 on the river.
So much for my spectacular skill in reading your bluff... I still lost because you got lucky. It happens like this every day... twice to me last month at the casino as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I played the odds, made the right read and got my money in with the best hand, but still lost all my money when the other guy got lucky.
Flop comes 5AA. You bet a ton on a bluff and I make the world's greatest read doubting that you have an Ace and call your all-in bet.
Then you catch a 3 on the turn and 4 on the river.
So much for my spectacular skill in reading your bluff... I still lost because you got lucky. It happens like this every day... twice to me last month at the casino as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I played the odds, made the right read and got my money in with the best hand, but still lost all my money when the other guy got lucky.
I see this happen all the time. You see it on tv on the wsop. Guys go all in or bet huge amounts of money. At the time they have the best hand, then lose it on the river or the turn and the river. A lot of times the guy who wins didn`t have the best hand at the time he went all in. Then they just stand around with their hands on the head and wait to see what cards come up. Noone knows.
When people say over time if you play the odds you will come out on top, that is misleading. Poker is a hand by hand basis. You can lose a ton of money on one hand or in one night playing the odds. People win against the odds all the time. Every card that comes up can change the odds at that particular time. You may have the best odds on your pocket cards, then those odds can change after the flop. Or you can have the odds after the flop and lose it on the turn. Noone knows what card is coming up next. The odds and advantage constantly change after each card is dealt. That`s why it is mostly luck.
Noone knows what card is coming up next. The odds and advantage constantly change after each card is dealt. That`s why it is mostly luck.
Yep... and that was my point. Regardless of how skilled you are at reading people (and I've made a few good calls in my day) if the cards fall the wrong way you lose.
Knowing the odds helps in decision making but you are still at the mercy of the card gods. The 2 hands that busted me at the casino last month I was 99% to win... my set vs a pair after the flop... and I got turned and rivered and lost to quads... twice in 90 minutes.
All I could do was say "Wow" and walk out the door.
Wow there are some clueless people on this thread.Spm62 -"blackjack is a poker based game" lmaof.You just lost all your credibility right there.When has blackjack ever been considered a poker based game?Pi Gow,3 and 4 card are poker based table games not blackjack. I was a backjack,poker and casino games dealer for over 8 years.So I know alot about this subject.First off is poker a skill based game that you can make a living at, YES,but only for 5% of people that play.For the rest of the 95% it is a game of luck and chance.Can a non pro beat a pro in a single hand, of course.But if a pro played an amateur 1000 times he would destroy him.Lot of 95%ers here that think if they cant win in the long run no one can,WRONG.Just because you cant play winning poker dosen't negate the skill of the 5%.Bankroll management,table selection,pot odds,implied odds,finding hidden outs,reading ability,getting players to fold a superior hand, protecting a made hand to draws,evaluation of opponents play,bluffing ability,controlled agression and patience are just SOME of the SKILLS a professional poker player need to have.
Spm62 counting cards has NOTHING to do with poker.Why do you keep mixing blackjack in with your poker debate. Too the person that said "ugh" you are soo right.And spm62 why on earth would sit at a poker table with players that are equal or better than you.Thats called horrible table selection,a SKILL you obviously don't employ.The only time you don't have table selection is in a tournament.So if you play tournys you just need to be better than 80% of the players to profit, get into the money.
First off is poker a skill based game that you can make a living at, YES,but only for 5% of people that play.For the rest of the 95% it is a game of luck and chance.Can a non pro beat a pro in a single hand, of course.But if a pro played an amateur 1000 times he would destroy him.Lot of 95%ers here that think if they cant win in the long run no one can,WRONG.Just because you cant play winning poker dosen't negate the skill of the 5%.Bankroll management,table selection,pot odds,implied odds,finding hidden outs,reading ability,getting players to fold a superior hand, protecting a made hand to draws,evaluation of opponents play,bluffing ability,controlled agression and patience are just SOME of the SKILLS a professional poker player need to have.
Sorry, but I disagree as do so many others that I have talked to. Also, I couldn`t care less if you were a dealer for 50 years. That doesn`t neccessarily make you an expert on whether it is mostly skill or luck. That is something that has been debated by more experienced and intelligent people than either you or I.
I have said on here over and over that I believe a certain amount of skill is involved. I have also stated that I believe an experienced player can defeat a novice the majority of time. I don`t know how many times I need to say that. So that basically negates most of your argument.
But luck plays a vital role in poker or any card game,whether it be, blackjack, holdem, or old maids. The question isn`t whether luck is involved, it is how much luck plays a role. Someone who studies the game and plays a lot can definately tip the odds in their favor. So yes, that increases their chance against less experienced players. That`s true of any game or anything that requires even the smallest of skills. So boasting that an experienced player can beat an inexperienced player over time is a pointless argument. The true test is pitting pro against pro. So called "pros play against other "pros". Who wins most of those games? I`ve seen less experienced pros beat more experienced pros. It came down to luck. So stop with the.....'an experienced player can beat a novice argument'. That doesn`t prove anything.
Trying to bluff someone is mostly luck as well. You have no idea what cards the other person has. You have no clue if he has a fullhouse or a pair of 2`s. If you have nothing and you bluffed him into folding a pair of 2`s that would have beat you, you call that skill? You were just lucky he didn`t have AA or 3 of a kind. You have no way of knowing. You are confusing luck with skill. You took a chance without knowing what cards he was holding. Experienced players change up their betting habits. So you don`t know what they have. You can only guess.
I think the following quote says it best.
"Although skills such as knowledge of human psychology, bluffing, and the ability to calculate and analyze odds make it more likely for skilled players to defeat novices, novices may yet prevail with a simple run of luck," wrote judge Ann Marie Calabria. "No amount of skill can change a deuce into an ace."
In an unanimous ruling, the three-judge panel agreed that a skilled player can tip the odds in his favor but said the player "is always subject to defeat at the turn of a card."
And there is the point. EVERY PLAYER, no matter how experienced, is ALWAYS subject to defeat at the turn of a card. A card that is out of his control. Therefore, poker,imo, is a luck based game with a certain amount of skill involved.
Flop comes 5AA. You bet a ton on a bluff and I make the world's greatest read doubting that you have an Ace and call your all-in bet.
Then you catch a 3 on the turn and 4 on the river.
So much for my spectacular skill in reading your bluff... I still lost because you got lucky. It happens like this every day... twice to me last month at the casino as I mentioned earlier in the thread. I played the odds, made the right read and got my money in with the best hand, but still lost all my money when the other guy got lucky.
Well said, skill only gets you so far and unless you have the nuts going all in pre flop or after the flop it's nothing but the randomness of the runner cards. And after being on the wrong end of too many bad beats it becomes harder and harder not to go on tilt.
Spm I agree with you luck is involved in poker so what, luck is also involved in chess,pro basket ball and many other games.I am a horrible chess player but I sometimes beat players WAYYY better than me, how, its all luck.Dose that mean I can beat that player all the time,hell no he has more SKILL than me but I can get lucky sometimes.Same with poker.Dose that somehow mean the poker pros are less skilled because they they win 56% or 60% of the time, HELL NO.From what I gather is you dont think you or others can consistently win at poker because theres too much luck involved.There are thousands of people who make a living playing poker who would beg to differ.And I love your little nugget about poker players that have equal skill will face more instances of luck.Well duh,thank you enistein for that revelation.If your aim is to make money and not test yourself aginst the best why would you play poker with players that are equal or better than you?(with the only exception being late rounds of large tournments,and learning new skillsets)A winning poker players most powerful weapon is proper table selection.I am sorry you can't grasp that simple concept.Well i should expect as much coming from a guy who thinks blackjack is poker.
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I was a backjack,poker and casino games dealer for over 8 years.So I know alot about this subject.First off is poker a skill based game that you can make a living at, YES,but only for 5% of people that play.For the rest of the 95% it is a game of luck and chance.Can a non pro beat a pro in a single hand, of course.But if a pro played an amateur 1000 times he would destroy him.Lot of 95%ers here that think if they cant win in the long run no one can,WRONG.Just because you cant play winning poker dosen't negate the skill of the 5%.Bankroll management,table selection,pot odds,implied odds,finding hidden outs,reading ability,getting players to fold a superior hand, protecting a made hand to draws,evaluation of opponents play,bluffing ability,controlled agression and patience are just SOME of the SKILLS a professional poker player need to have.