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Old 09-18-2010, 02:09 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,049,297 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
First, your wrong, and secondly you failed to explain why it took 1,700 years for Jews to respect god, because the practice of not pronouncing god's name did not come into being until the 2nd Century BCE.
No I am not wrong. Everytime I read blessings or read from the Tanakh I read it as Adonai. When there are 2 yuds or YHVH it is read Adonai.

And the op is just why do we write G-d like this.

I explained why I do it. Others did too.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,200,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
No I am not wrong. Everytime I read blessings or read from the Tanakh I read it as Adonai. When there are 2 yuds or YHVH it is read Adonai.

And the op is just why do we write G-d like this.

I explained why I do it. Others did too.
Fail.

The practice of not speaking god's name of Yahweh did not start until the 3rd Century BCE.

The Hebrew Tanakh is based on Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which comes from Codex Leningradis which is the oldest complete copy of the Old Testament. Many rabbis and priests prefer Codex Aleppo which is older than Codex Leningradis (which is dated to the 11th Century CE) even though Codex Aleppo is not complete.

It is typically rendered Elohim (gods plural stemming from the original Sumerian/Akkadian word El of which the Ugartic/Hebrew cognate is Elohe and the Semitic cognate is Allah), Adonai or the Tetragammon without the vowels.

In Greek and Latin texts its rendered as Kyrios and Dominus respectively.

When the Masoretes added vowels to the texts, there was no standard pronunciation for YHWH. You could pronounce it Yahweh, Yahwah, Yehwah, Yohweh or however you wanted.

The Masoretic texts typically use Adonai and for Yahweh Elohim it is typically rendered Adonai Adonai (and note that the Masoretic texts are even less complete than Codex Aleppo).

Codex Leningradis and Codex Aleppo also use ha-shema ("the Name" -- which is Aramaic) or ha-shem (also "the Name" which is Hebrew).

The name of god was pronounced, according you because the Hebrews had no respect for Yahweh, up until the about the 3rd Century BCE.

We know from the Mishna that the Messiah, oh gosh, I'm sorry, did I offend anyone with the TRUTH? um, the anointed one (that is the high priest) said aloud the name of god on the day of Yom Kippur.

We also know that by the time the Septuagint of Leviticus (and he called...) was written the practice of not uttering the name of god was starting to be chic and groovy because it says, “And he that names the name of God, let him die the death," while the oldest Hebrew text of Leviticus says, "He who uses the name of God in vain, ....”.

So, one of these things is not like the other. Obviously you could say the name of god, so long as you did not say the name of god in vain, but then later it became you cannot speak the name of god at all.

By the 2nd/1st Century BCE when the Essenes are getting whacked out we have:

“Whoever enunciates the Name (which is) honored above all … whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, … or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.”

Well, "this piece of halibut was good enough for Yahweh," boo-hoo I can't go back to the community council any more.

I hate to ruin your day, but the Elephantine Papyri and the Samaritan Papyri from the 5th Century BCE quite clearly pronounce the name of god without the Tetragammon and without Adonai or anything else, and not only that it seems people had different names for god like Ya (YH), Yahoo (I'm not making that up) and Yahveh.

Anyway the point is that from 2,100 BCE to 250 BCE the people spoke the name of god whenever they so desired and it was only after 250 BCE that it became taboo and evil to speak the name of god.

So, once again, I ask, why did it take the Hebrews 1,700 years to show respect to Yahweh?

Was there a reason that Yahweh did not deserve to be respected?

Did Yahweh forget to tell the Hebrews not to pronounce his name for 1,700 years (what kind of "god" forgets?)?

Also, I am an atheist. Why do I have to constantly instruct people in their own religion?
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:39 PM
 
4,082 posts, read 5,049,297 times
Reputation: 818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Fail.

The practice of not speaking god's name of Yahweh did not start until the 3rd Century BCE.

The Hebrew Tanakh is based on Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, which comes from Codex Leningradis which is the oldest complete copy of the Old Testament. Many rabbis and priests prefer Codex Aleppo which is older than Codex Leningradis (which is dated to the 11th Century CE) even though Codex Aleppo is not complete.

It is typically rendered Elohim (gods plural stemming from the original Sumerian/Akkadian word El of which the Ugartic/Hebrew cognate is Elohe and the Semitic cognate is Allah), Adonai or the Tetragammon without the vowels.

In Greek and Latin texts its rendered as Kyrios and Dominus respectively.

When the Masoretes added vowels to the texts, there was no standard pronunciation for YHWH. You could pronounce it Yahweh, Yahwah, Yehwah, Yohweh or however you wanted.

The Masoretic texts typically use Adonai and for Yahweh Elohim it is typically rendered Adonai Adonai (and note that the Masoretic texts are even less complete than Codex Aleppo).

Codex Leningradis and Codex Aleppo also use ha-shema ("the Name" -- which is Aramaic) or ha-shem (also "the Name" which is Hebrew).

The name of god was pronounced, according you because the Hebrews had no respect for Yahweh, up until the about the 3rd Century BCE.

We know from the Mishna that the Messiah, oh gosh, I'm sorry, did I offend anyone with the TRUTH? um, the anointed one (that is the high priest) said aloud the name of god on the day of Yom Kippur.

We also know that by the time the Septuagint of Leviticus (and he called...) was written the practice of not uttering the name of god was starting to be chic and groovy because it says, “And he that names the name of God, let him die the death," while the oldest Hebrew text of Leviticus says, "He who uses the name of God in vain, ....”.

So, one of these things is not like the other. Obviously you could say the name of god, so long as you did not say the name of god in vain, but then later it became you cannot speak the name of god at all.

By the 2nd/1st Century BCE when the Essenes are getting whacked out we have:

“Whoever enunciates the Name (which is) honored above all … whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, … or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.”

Well, "this piece of halibut was good enough for Yahweh," boo-hoo I can't go back to the community council any more.

I hate to ruin your day, but the Elephantine Papyri and the Samaritan Papyri from the 5th Century BCE quite clearly pronounce the name of god without the Tetragammon and without Adonai or anything else, and not only that it seems people had different names for god like Ya (YH), Yahoo (I'm not making that up) and Yahveh.

Anyway the point is that from 2,100 BCE to 250 BCE the people spoke the name of god whenever they so desired and it was only after 250 BCE that it became taboo and evil to speak the name of god.

So, once again, I ask, why did it take the Hebrews 1,700 years to show respect to Yahweh?

Was there a reason that Yahweh did not deserve to be respected?

Did Yahweh forget to tell the Hebrews not to pronounce his name for 1,700 years (what kind of "god" forgets?)?

Also, I am an atheist. Why do I have to constantly instruct people in their own religion?
Again the question was just why do we leave the o out of G-d. Nothing more.

It is your choice to become a Jerk.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:50 PM
 
Location: The Ranch in Olam Haba
23,707 posts, read 30,794,577 times
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The name is supposed to be unpronouncible or a whisper in the wind. The word adoni is used in prayer only - It is the title (Lord) to the name and not the name. When it is part of reading or study it is hashem - referencing the name indirectly but not the title. Jews do not pronounce Y...h or Je...h.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - ADONAI

Research ADN
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:41 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,713,683 times
Reputation: 4573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The practice of not speaking god's name of Yahweh did not start until the 3rd Century BCE.
You fail.

According to Judaism 101: The Name of G-d

Nothing in the Torah prohibits a person from pronouncing the Name of God. Indeed, it is evident from scripture that God's Name was pronounced routinely. Many common Hebrew names contain "Yah" or "Yahu," part of God's four-letter Name. The Name was pronounced as part of daily services in the Temple.

The Mishnah confirms that there was no prohibition against pronouncing The Name in ancient times. In fact, the Mishnah recommends using God's Name as a routine greeting to a fellow Jew. Berakhot 9:5. However, by the time of the Talmud, it was the custom to use substitute Names for God. Some rabbis asserted that a person who pronounces YHVH according to its letters (instead of using a substitute) has no place in the World to Come, and should be put to death. Instead of pronouncing the four-letter Name, we usually substitute the Name "Adonai," or simply say "Ha-Shem" (lit. The Name).

Although the prohibition on pronunciation applies only to the four-letter Name, Jews customarily do not pronounce any of God's many Names except in prayer or study. The usual practice is to substitute letters or syllables, so that Adonai becomes Adoshem or Ha-Shem, Elohaynu and Elohim become Elokaynu and Elokim, etc.

With the Temple destroyed and the prohibition on pronouncing The Name outside of the Temple, pronunciation of the Name fell into disuse. Scholars passed down knowledge of the correct pronunciation of YHVH for many generations, but eventually the correct pronunciation was lost, and we no longer know it with any certainty. We do not know what vowels were used, or even whether the Vav in the Name was a vowel or a consonant.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,767 posts, read 2,351,400 times
Reputation: 634
.


The word, "God", is a title, not a name.

Do they also take the 'o' out of Lord ?


.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: California
72,434 posts, read 18,213,781 times
Reputation: 41666
Jews really use Adonai,Hashem,Eloheinu,Hakadosh.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:51 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,713,683 times
Reputation: 4573
Quote:
Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
.


The word, "God", is a title, not a name.

Do they also take the 'o' out of Lord ?


.
G-d is the NAME, and so is L-rd.
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:53 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 29,713,683 times
Reputation: 4573
Quote:
Originally Posted by VillageLife View Post
Jews really use Adonai,Hashem,Eloheinu,Hakadosh.
Jews customarily do not pronounce any of God's many Names except in prayer or study. The usual practice is to substitute letters or syllables, so that Adonai becomes Adoshem or Ha-Shem, Elohaynu and Elohim become Elokaynu and Elokim, etc.
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Old 09-19-2010, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,200,586 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
You fail.

According to Judaism 101: The Name of G-d
Nobody gives a damn what Judaism 101 says.

The Septuagint of Leviticus (and he called...) says, “And he that names the name of God, let him die the death," while the oldest Hebrew text of Leviticus says, "He who uses the name of God in vain, ....”.

That's what the texts say, and that contradicts you source.

You and your source also totally ignore the Qumran (Dead Sea) Scrolls:

“Whoever enunciates the Name (which is) honored above all … whether blaspheming, or suddenly overtaken by misfortune or for any reason, … or reading a book, or blessing, will be excluded and shall not go back ever to the Community council.”

The bottom-line is none of you understand what you're talking about.

Your source is faulty and for the final total discrediting of your bogus source, it states explicitly and specifically In the Mishna Tractacte Sanhedrin X,1, that the only person who can pronounce the name of god is the high-priest (the um, messiah) on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) see:

Samuel Krauß, Die Mischna. Text, Übersetzung und ausführliche Erklärung. Mit eingehenden geschichtlichen und sprachlichen Einleitungen und textkritischen Anhängen. IV. Seder Neziqin 4. Traktat Sanhedrin, Gießen: Alfred Töpelmann, 1933, p. 267-271, spec. p. 270-271. See also Bavli Sanhedrin XI:1 [90a] in: Jacob Neusner (translator), The Talmud of Babylonia. An American Translation. XXIIIC: Tractate Sanhedrin, chapters 9-11 (Brown Judaic Studies, 87), Chico: Scholars Press, p. 91ff.



The evidence is irrefutable.

Hebrews spoke the name of god for 1,700 years and then suddenly for whatever reason is was not permitted by the powers that be to speak the name of god.

For the third time, I ask why did the Hebrews disrespect Yahweh for 1,700 before coming to realize that pronouncing his name was wrong?
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