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My mom & I have this discussion all the time & the truth is that many Jewish people don't believe that Jesus was who he claimed to be. For those of the Christian faith it would be a big win for them to convert all OR as many Jews as they can. I guess if they can convert the Jewish people then other will see them as THE ONLY & only right religion. At least thats what they hope will happen.
Technically, Christians want to convert all people, regardless of their faith.
Early Christians, such as the apostle Peter, initially believed that only Jews could be Christians. It was Paul who took the Gospel to the Gentiles (non Jews), and it was also Paul who moved Christianity away from Judaism by getting rid of the requirements of Jewish law (particularly circumcision) from Christianity so it appealed more to the Gentiles.
Since Paul, there has not been any need to legitimize Christianity through conversion of Jews.
It goes back to how the Christians see eternal life. As an analogy, say you see someone you care about in the street, about to be murdered. You could go out there, confront the attacker, and save the individual. Or you could stay inside, and let them die. You go out there ready to confront the attacker, when the potential victim tells you "thanks but no thanks, I did not ask for your help, please go away." Do you turn your back, and let him get murdered? Or do you help anyway? That is how these Christians likely see it.
In a way, they do not understand because the BELIEVE there is only one way to heavan, and they cannot figure out why someone would chose another option.
I hear what you're saying, Checkered, but I believe your view is a candy-coating of a deeply nefarious practice. I believe the truth is actually the opposite of what you propose, as there's entirely an absense of proof that not believing in Jesus is harmful to one's soul. Doing anything that contributes to a Jew giving up their religious beliefs will at the worst cause that Jew to loose access to Olam Haba (the world to come), and at the least cause them to be shunned by their family and have to spend the rest of their life in conflict.
So if we rule out the missionary converting the Jew for the benefit of the Jew, who is left to benefit? Correct, the missionary. It's a terribly selfish and disgusting practice to set into motion such harmful effects to a Jew simply so that a Chrstian missionary can feel better about himself, or to seek the missing justification to their own belief system.
Technically, Christians want to convert all people, regardless of their faith.
Early Christians, such as the apostle Peter, initially believed that only Jews could be Christians. It was Paul who took the Gospel to the Gentiles (non Jews), and it was also Paul who moved Christianity away from Judaism by getting rid of the requirements of Jewish law (particularly circumcision) from Christianity so it appealed more to the Gentiles.
Since Paul, there has not been any need to legitimize Christianity through conversion of Jews.
Yes but because Most Jews still only believe in the OT & that Jesus hasn't returned it would be a HUGE boon for them.
I hear what you're saying, Checkered, but I believe your view is a candy-coating of a deeply nefarious practice. I believe the truth is actually the opposite of what you propose, as there's entirely an absense of proof that not believing in Jesus is harmful to one's soul. Doing anything that contributes to a Jew giving up their religious beliefs will at the worst cause that Jew to loose access to Olam Haba (the world to come), and at the least cause them to be shunned by their family and have to spend the rest of their life in conflict.
So if we rule out the missionary converting the Jew for the benefit of the Jew, who is left to benefit? Correct, the missionary. It's a terribly selfish and disgusting practice to set into motion such harmful effects to a Jew simply so that a Chrstian missionary can feel better about himself, or to seek the missing justification to their own belief system.
Yes, the Jew with deep faith is likely to see evangelical Christianity as a nefarious practice. Like the Christian believing what they believe to be totally and utterly true, the faithful Jew would believe his own beliefs too, and thereby disagree wholeheartedly with the Christian. (Or the Muslim, or Hindu, or...)
Also by definition, faith in the spiritual is a belief through faith and not based on scientific evidence. Now, a Chrisitan would argue they have proof, Jesus died, and rose from the grave just as he prophesized before his death, and fulfilled OT prophesy as further proof. The Jew would say that Jesus did not fulfill old testament prophesy as the messiah, and/or accuse Jesus of coordinating his actions to appear as proof.
Regardless, faith is not based on scientific proof, regardless of the "regligion" in question
I hear what you're saying, Checkered, but I believe your view is a candy-coating of a deeply nefarious practice. I believe the truth is actually the opposite of what you propose, as there's entirely an absense of proof that not believing in Jesus is harmful to one's soul.
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Please provide evidence for this, or can you read people's minds and look into their hearts too?
Doing anything that contributes to a Jew giving up their religious beliefs will at the worst cause that Jew to loose access to Olam Haba (the world to come),
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Christians, and thus, christian missionaries don't believe that.
and at the least cause them to be shunned by their family and have to spend the rest of their life in conflict.
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Not always the case. And what does that say about their families? My sister tried to cvonvert to Judaism, and none of my family (christian) tried to shun her. Are chrstians more tolerant than Jews now?
So if we rule out the missionary converting the Jew for the benefit of the Jew, who is left to benefit?
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Again, proove this.
Correct, the missionary.
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Incorrect.
It's a terribly selfish and disgusting practice to set into motion such harmful effects to a Jew simply so that a Chrstian missionary can feel better about himself, or to seek the missing justification to their own belief system.
Is it also harmful to Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and such? Why don't you speak up for them? Why are you so cynical? Why do you automatically think the worse of christians who try to convert jews? Whether you like the practice or not, why do you automatically think the worse here?
Yes, the Jew with deep faith is likely to see evangelical Christianity as a nefarious practice. Like the Christian believing what they believe to be totally and utterly true, the faithful Jew would believe his own beliefs too, and thereby disagree wholeheartedly with the Christian. (Or the Muslim, or Hindu, or...)
One thing I should clarify for you, so you know what a typical religious Jew believes. We do not see "evangelical Christianity as a nefarious practice." Quite the contrary, we admire their fervent belief in the Al-Mighty, and we believe they 1,000% have a right to connect with Hashem in whatever manner they choose. It's only when they cross over into the dubious world of trying to convert Jews that we take issue.
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My sister tried to cvonvert to Judaism, and none of my family (christian) tried to shun her. Are chrstians more tolerant than Jews now?
cmforte, yes, I would say Chrstians are more tolerant than Jews when it comes to "switching team logos." From what I understand, it's not uncommon for Chrstians to switch denominations many times in their lives - sometimes out of a change in belief, and other times out of convenience. But in my experience in knowing many who have converted to Judaism, these former Chrstians in nearly every situation I have known have given up their family (being shunned), have given up their job (not being able to work on Saturdays), have given up their name (when doing an Orthodox conversion, the convert assumes a Hebrew name) and so on.
When the Jew converts to Chrstianity, entire communities mourn for the loss of that Jewish soul. You see, we Jews believe in the utter and total sanctity of the individual Jewish soul. Think back to last year when Israel swapped 1,000 jailed Arab terrorists in order to free one single Yid (Gilad Shalit) being held captive by the Palestinians. So you are correct, we have zero tolerance for the Jew who leaves their faith.
In all my years on this planet (and excluding the fairy land of anonymous internet boards), I have only known of one Jew who became a Chrstian. It happened 2 decades ago, and I still can only find the stomach to wisper about it, as it's such a distasteful thing. I find it easier to think of friends who have committed suicide than to think of a friend who became a Chrstian. In fact, by Jewish law, a Jew is required to allow himself to killed before submitting to a conversion to any idol worshipping religion.
Please do not misunderstand what I'm saying. I have exactly zero distaste for Chrstians practicing Chrstianity. In fact, I admire those who do it with faith and conviction. Nail your man-god up to a cross and tattoo him on your forehead. Awesome! It's only the proselytizing to Jews that literaly makes me sick to my stomach.
I think alot of Christians feel they are supposed to try to convert all Jews. Except for the 144,000 "chosen" ones.
If I'm not mistaken, that number refers to 144,000 Jews in end times who will forcefully be converted to Chrstianity, while millions of others Jews die by the Chrstian sword, right? I assume you can understand why we Jews believe that Chrstian idea to be rooted in deep and desparate Jew hatred, right?
And FYI, the Torah demands that we die by the sword rather than accepting you know who as some kind of god. So your 144,000 number would represent the Jews who violated the Torah mitzvahs and chose to shun G-d and accept Chrstianity.
Thanks for the clarification of where you were coming from. I think we were on the same page, as I was reveferring to evangelicals the same way you say they are proselytizing.
It is really a situation of two sides of the same coin.
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Originally Posted by theflipflop
If I'm not mistaken, that number refers to 144,000 Jews in end times who will forcefully be converted to Chrstianity, while millions of others Jews die by the Chrstian sword, right? I assume you can understand why we Jews believe that Chrstian idea to be rooted in deep and desparate Jew hatred, right?
And FYI, the Torah demands that we die by the sword rather than accepting you know who as some kind of god. So your 144,000 number would represent the Jews who violated the Torah mitzvahs and chose to shun G-d and accept Chrstianity.
The 144,000 is in reference to the number of Jews who are prophesized as accepting Christ after the rapture and during the 7 year tribulation before the second coming of Christ.
If I'm not mistaken, that number refers to 144,000 Jews in end times who will forcefully be converted to Chrstianity,
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Where do you get this idea from?
while millions of others Jews die by the Chrstian sword, right?
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Where do you get this idea from?
I assume you can understand why we Jews believe that Chrstian idea to be rooted in deep and desparate Jew hatred, right?
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No.
And FYI, the Torah demands that we die by the sword rather than accepting you know who as some kind of god. So your 144,000 number would represent the Jews who violated the Torah mitzvahs and chose to shun G-d and accept Chrstianity.
Not in our opinion.
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