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Although Bibi has done a lot for Israel, he is losing some of his voter base due to on going hostage crisis (besides his ongoing legal battles).
Many in Israel are adding a page in Hebrew called "Who Knows?" with the names of all those hostages are still being held in Gaza (and are assumed still alive).
I am biased, I had the most real moving dream about him when nobody knew who he was. I suppose if a dream could come from God, I think that dream was if there ever was a dream from God.
Bibi was giving a speech on a stage and I was standing back stage in the wings when his own people booed him. He was wearing all white and I saw the hurt in his eyes and I walked up to him and whispered in his ear how much he meant to me, and that many like me were 100 percent behind him.
Meh, just a dream, but a dream strong enough to change me in ways, it was like the most important thing to me, such a powerful dream. I have all the faith in the world in Netanyahu, he may as well be David to me
Frankly, I trust Christian Zionists significantly less than I trust most so called "antizionists." The latter is generally stemming from a misplaced sense of righteousness drummed up by propaganda. Christian Zionists, however, in my experience love Israel but absolutely detest Jews. I'm never going to trust or respect people who believe that people who do not believe what they do will burn in eternal damnation or whose support of Israel is stemming from their desire to start the second coming with also the convenience of eradicating Jews from their presence.
Some of the most virulently antisemitic families I grew up with in the rural South as the only Jewish person anyone had ever met have grown up into loud Christian Zionists. They're no allies.
While we can't blame Hamas' attack on Bibi, it is absolutely naive to think that Bibi, Ben Gvir, and the whole lot haven't made things worse for generations for the millions of Israelis and millions of Palestinians living in the region, neither of whom is going anywhere.
I largely agree with you as far as Evangelical-driven Zionists go, as opposed to Zionists who happen to be Christian (after all, Zionism ultimately boils down to a belief that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state). That even includes some Christian Zionists who are motivated in part by a belief that Jews are the Chosen People or otherwise believe in a dual covenant theology. I think your criticism is focused on the former variety, and again, I’m with you on distrusting the people who want to use Jews as pawns because they think it will bring about the second coming or, perhaps even worse, want to try to “save” them.
I’m no longer aligned with AIPAC (I identify now as post-Zionist as opposed to plain-old Zionist), but I recall from my college pro-Israel advocacy days that the Christian Zionists I met (many of whom were some variety of Evangelical) were geopolitically educated and savvy people who supported Israel because they deeply respected the Jewish people and felt it was the right thing to do. Lest you think I was hoodwinked, Evangelical-driven Zionists are not good liars, nor do I think they even try to be.
I also would not give the pro-Palestine crowd a free pass as broadly motivated by good intentions. I resounds reject the notion that anti-Zionism and antisemitism are one and the same, but there is an uncomfortably large contingent of antisemites within this contingent (which has become even more emboldened in the past six months). Even many pro-Palestine activists who manage (whether out of genuine conviction or some semblance of social savvy) to avoid using openly antisemitic language or the more obvious tropes and dog-whistles, believe the recent rise in antisemitism comes almost exclusively from the right and/or is no big deal. Both notions are false.
While I do agree that even now, the antisemitic right is a greater threat to American Jews than the antisemitic left, the left has been playing a wicked game of catch-up in the States and represents the bulk (or at least the co-dominant driving force) of antisemitism in other Western and Western-leaning nations.
Last edited by ElijahAstin; 04-23-2024 at 05:39 PM..
I largely agree with you as far as Evangelical-driven Zionists go, as opposed to Zionists who happen to be Christian (after all, Zionism ultimately boils down to a belief that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state). That even includes some Christian Zionists who are motivated in part by a belief that Jews are the Chosen People or otherwise believe in a dual covenant theology. I think your criticism is focused on the former variety, and again, I’m with you on distrusting the people who want to use Jews as pawns because they think it will bring about the second coming or, perhaps even worse, want to try to “save” them.
Why are you so caught up in what our motivation is?
The stereotyping is unreal. As a Christian Zionist myself, I can tell you there are millions of different reasons Christians support Israel. This idea that we fit into a few neat categories, some laudable, others not, is absurd and false.
I believe naivete is a sin. Proverbs 14:15 (part of the Old Testament and Hebrew Bible) says "The naive believe everything, but the sensible man considers his steps"
The comments here about Christians and Christian Zionists are appallingly naive, so I encourage you to learn more about the various beliefs, and maybe even talk to some of us, before coming up with these categorizations that have little connection to the truth.
Why are you so caught up in what our motivation is?
The stereotyping is unreal. As a Christian Zionist myself, I can tell you there are millions of different reasons Christians support Israel. This idea that we fit into a few neat categories, some laudable, others not, is absurd and false.
I believe naivete is a sin. Proverbs 14:15 (part of the Old Testament and Hebrew Bible) says "The naive believe everything, but the sensible man considers his steps"
The comments here about Christians and Christian Zionists are appallingly naive, so I encourage you to learn more about the various beliefs, and maybe even talk to some of us, before coming up with these categorizations that have little connection to the truth.
I never said what category of Christian Zionist you were or were not. I don’t know you and am not familiar enough with your posting history to comment.
As it so happens, the personal experiences I’ve had with Christian Zionists have been uniformly positive, but the Evangelical Christian Right, as a political movement, are, at best, fair-weather friends of the Jewish people, with an unwholesome end game.
but the Evangelical Christian Right, as a political movement, are, at best, fair-weather friends of the Jewish people, with an unwholesome end game.
What end game? Where are you getting this? Do you know what it means to be evangelical?
My wife grew up in an Evangelical Lutheran Church that was very progressive. Evangelical is a transdenominational term and again, I see more stereotyping and assumptions here than thoughtful research and understanding. "Unwholesome"? Why? Because we support democratic Israel over the pro-terrorist dictatorships that surround it? Is it unwholesome to support Israel, a country where it's legal to be gay, over Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Palestine, etc where it's not only a crime to be gay, but in many cases punishable by death?
I encourage you to research Christianity and evangelicals more before making absurd, sweeping statements.
What end game? Where are you getting this? Do you know what it means to be evangelical?
My wife grew up in an Evangelical Lutheran Church that was very progressive. Evangelical is a transdenominational term and again, I see more stereotyping and assumptions here than thoughtful research and understanding. "Unwholesome"? Why? Because we support democratic Israel over the pro-terrorist dictatorships that surround it? Is it unwholesome to support Israel, a country where it's legal to be gay, over Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Palestine, etc where it's not only a crime to be gay, but in many cases punishable by death?
I encourage you to research Christianity and evangelicals more before making absurd, sweeping statements.
ELCA is a mainline Protestant denomination. You and I both know “evangelical” means something completely different in this context.
Again, I can’t comment on your motivations because I have no idea who you are or what you’ve said beyond the limited scope of this thread. And with all due respect, I don’t really care to find out. I’m not accusing you of anything, so I don’t know why you’re being so defensive.
I encourage you to consider why Jews look askance at a religiopolitical group that—by its own expressly stated goals—wants the Jews to return to Zion so that Jesus Christ can come back to earth and bring about the Second Coming. Whether they genuinely hate Arabs and/or Muslims curries no favor with me, as I find anti-Arab sentiment and Islamophobia repugnant, like all forms of bigotry.
If you want to get in the last word after this post, you’re free to have it.
I encourage you to consider why Jews look askance at a religiopolitical group that—by its own expressly stated goals—wants the Jews to return to Zion so that Jesus Christ can come back to earth and bring about the Second Coming.
So you've taken the belief of less than 1% of Christian Zionists and applied it to all. It's sad when people would rather stereotype than learn and research. I feel sorry for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
If you want to get in the last word after this post, you’re free to have it.
Understood. Debate must be shut down when facts are presented that don't align with deeply held falsehoods.
This forum is difficult because we sometimes discuss issues related to the Jewish community instead of being strictly limited to the religion of Judaism.
This thread was started with a post that mentioned Hamas, and several replies have mentioned Netanyahu/Bibi. Now, we have three posts reported because they are more political than religious.
This thread is closed for that reason. It should not have been started.
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