Sad tale of the brave calling-out of torture (Army, AFR, Marine)

[Cida]

Honorable intentions. But it didn't end well for him.



Soldier Who Called Out Torture in Iraq Is Laid to Rest at Arlington
Ian Fishback, who left the Army with the rank of major, was a dissident-in-uniform who died at the age of 42 after entering a dizzying mental health spiral.
Mr. Fishback was a dissident-in-uniform who ultimately set aside a sparkling military career to become a philosopher before entering a dizzying mental health spiral. He was often hard to categorize. The presiding Army chaplain, Maj. Joanna Forbes, highlighted the manner in which he applied the values he embraced as a West Point graduate and as a military officer to protect those who ended up in the Army’s battlefield grasp.
“I have buried many heroes. But none like Ian Fishback.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/08/u...-cemetery.html


Ian Fishback, who blew the whistle on torture by the U.S. military, was laid to rest
https://www.npr.org/2023/08/09/11929...as-laid-to-res

[Yoski]

His burial at Arlington is a well-deserved honor, but it's a shame though not suprising that his country (the VA) failed him. That period of the 2000's was a troubling and difficult time for the military. Failing strategies and policies that went against so many lessons we had learned and ethical guidelines and barriers we had put in place due to mistakes and atrocities of the past. It was a shame to see us go right back down that path and have it sanctioned from the highest levels of government. People like Major Fishback pushed back and stood for what he and we all knew was right. Salute.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by Yoski

His burial at Arlington is a well-deserved honor, but it's a shame though not suprising that his country (the VA) failed him.

I see no evidence the VA failed him.

It's appalling that you would comment without any knowledge or understanding of the VA's mental health treatment programs.

Apparently you think the VA waves a magic wand over the US and vets suddenly want to be treated and rush to the nearest VA facility for treatment. That ain't how it works.

[Yoski]

Originally Posted by Mircea

I see no evidence the VA failed him.

It's appalling that you would comment without any knowledge or understanding of the VA's mental health treatment programs.

Apparently you think the VA waves a magic wand over the US and vets suddenly want to be treated and rush to the nearest VA facility for treatment. That ain't how it works.

May I suggest that you do a little more reading up on his life and his dealing with the VA towards the end. Then if you want to continue this discussion after that, we can have a conversation on it, to include what I know about the VA and mental health treatment. No rush, I'll wait.

[WK91]

Originally Posted by Yoski

May I suggest that you do a little more reading up on his life and his dealing with the VA towards the end. Then if you want to continue this discussion after that, we can have a conversation on it, to include what I know about the VA and mental health treatment. No rush, I'll wait.

I purposefully chose a website that someone like you would totally believe, NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/02/10608...-by-u-s-troops

Anyway, here are some excerpts:

“His sister says he was on and off medication, at turns refusing to get care from the Department of Veterans Affairs or accepting that he needed help.”

“After many public outbursts in his hometown of Newberry, Mich., a court ordered him put into treatment and on medication.”

“ At the same time, they lobbied the VA to find space for him — but the coronavirus pandemic has made an already critical shortage of mental health care even worse.”

Drilling down further into the VA critical shortage:

“The suicide rate among America's veterans is almost double that of civilians. And many parts of the country face a shortage of mental health care providers.”

“So if you had a long wait time at the VA, chances are you also had a long wait time for private sector providers.”

“When the wait is too long or the provider's too far away, VA can refer patients to local, private health care.”

“But those - the shorter wait times with those civilian providers are still 8 to 12 weeks out, and in some areas, much, much longer.”


So in my opinion, this is a problem much bigger than the VA. I’m also not convinced that the VA failed Maj Fishback, since he refused treatment (if NPR is to believed).

Now if you want to state that NPR is obviously lying like the MSM always does in order to paint the establishment in a brighter light, that’s something we can agree on. But if you choose this option, that means your beloved “news agencies” are lying about much more, too.

[victimofGM]

Originally Posted by WK91

I purposefully chose a website that someone like you would totally believe, NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2021/12/02/10608...-by-u-s-troops

Anyway, here are some excerpts:

“His sister says he was on and off medication, at turns refusing to get care from the Department of Veterans Affairs or accepting that he needed help.”

“After many public outbursts in his hometown of Newberry, Mich., a court ordered him put into treatment and on medication.”

“ At the same time, they lobbied the VA to find space for him — but the coronavirus pandemic has made an already critical shortage of mental health care even worse.”

Drilling down further into the VA critical shortage:

“The suicide rate among America's veterans is almost double that of civilians. And many parts of the country face a shortage of mental health care providers.”

“So if you had a long wait time at the VA, chances are you also had a long wait time for private sector providers.”

“When the wait is too long or the provider's too far away, VA can refer patients to local, private health care.”

“But those - the shorter wait times with those civilian providers are still 8 to 12 weeks out, and in some areas, much, much longer.”


So in my opinion, this is a problem much bigger than the VA. I’m also not convinced that the VA failed Maj Fishback, since he refused treatment (if NPR is to believed).

Now if you want to state that NPR is obviously lying like the MSM always does in order to paint the establishment in a brighter light, that’s something we can agree on. But if you choose this option, that means your beloved “news agencies” are lying about much more, too.

This is another example of why I feel the veterans would be better served if the VA was a form of health insurance instead of a healthcare facility. Back onto the main topic,..I’m no defender of the VA. When it comes to addiction and mental issues the problem is more complex than blaming one facility. My family has dealt with addiction and mental health issues. You can force an addict into rehab but they won’t have a chance at recovery if they don’t want to break the addiction. If they want to break the addiction then they’ll have a better chance at recovery if they seek the help for themselves instead of being ordered to do so by the court. When it comes to mental illness it becomes more difficult. My uncle attempted suicide (not a veteran). He went through treatment which included psychiatric counseling and medication for diagnosed condition. His wife and daughter were very happy with the results. If the medication also required no alcohol. He was also an alcoholic. He grew up in a house that looked at beer the way today’s youth look at colas and energy drinks. So while his wife was at work he would stop taking his medication so he could have some beers. The return of his condition after stopping the medication was worse than before he went to treatment. There’s no one simple answer. Lock away in a care facility to ensure he takes his medication isn’t always an option and may cause greater harm to mental issues because of isolation from friends and family and socializing. Having home care by family can create stresses and issues with the family and make the patient feel as if a burden on his or her family and society and they would be better off without him or her.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by WK91

I purposefully chose a website that someone like you would totally believe, NPR.

Anyway, here are some excerpts:

“His sister says he was on and off medication, at turns refusing to get care from the Department of Veterans Affairs or accepting that he needed help.”

That is the primary issue 100% of the time and not the fault of the VA.

Originally Posted by WK91

“ At the same time, they lobbied the VA to find space for him — but the coronavirus pandemic has made an already critical shortage of mental health care even worse.”

I will be the first to admit it did have a negative impact because I know for a fact the 7 week in-patient PTSD programs were shut down all over the US.

Having said that, our PTSD group continued to meet every Friday at noon and we did it on Zoom. If I was out and about, I'd just pull into a parking lot, get my phone out and click on the link to join.

Originally Posted by WK91

“The suicide rate among America's veterans is almost double that of civilians. And many parts of the country face a shortage of mental health care providers.”

If veterans refuse to seek help there's nothing that can be done. I have a 2nd cousin in Tennessee who was an Iraq war vet that committed suicide. I can post the obit if you want which specifically mentions his fight against PTSD but never once did he seek help in spite of the fact that family members urged him to do so.

Originally Posted by Yoski

May I suggest that you do a little more reading up on his life and his dealing with the VA towards the end. Then if you want to continue this discussion after that, we can have a conversation on it, to include what I know about the VA and mental health treatment. No rush, I'll wait.

The subsequent post proves you wrong.

Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb?
A: It only takes one but the light bulb has to want to change.

Your lack of knowledge is unimpressive.

Should I blame the VA for not having a treatment for PTSD even though no one on Earth had any successful treatment program?

That's kinda stupid. It wasn't for a lack of trying. The VA was trying but they got no help from the civilian world who didn't really give a damn about PTSD.

I'm guessing you're not aware that for any number of reasons, including medical ethics, research and studies are not optional. They are a requirement and they take months to years to conduct.

Afghanistan and Iraq were a blessing because that allowed the VA to do better research and more studies and they finally came up with a treatment program in 2009 so the sacrifices of our brothers and sisters were not in vain.

I was Cohort 52. At that time, there were only two programs in the US the other being in Oregon because they weren't even sure the treatment would work.

My roommate was from North Carolina. Another guy was from Virginia, one from New York, a Marine from Wisconsin, two guys from Chicago, a guy from Detroit, a guy from Athens, Ohio, and the remaining 3 of us were local.

The reason there were 11 of us is because on the first day one veteran said it was BS and left.

I guess if he ended up committing suicide that would be the VA's fault because you think Dr. Chard should have called the VA police and hand-cuffed the guy in the parking lot, brought him back in, put him in a strait-jacked and strapped him to a gurney to force him to get treatment.

That guy wasted a spot for another veteran who might have actually wanted help and you obviously don't understand that one reason wait times at the VA are so long is because of the high number of veterans who miss appointments.

Mental health is like rehabilitation. Wanna know why convicts in prison don't get rehabilitated?

It's because they don't wanna be rehabilitated and there ain't nothing special about you and you ain't got no special magical powers to make them want to be rehabilitated just like you ain't got no special magical powers to make veterans want to get mental health treatment and actually stick with the program.

I've been in mental health treatment at the VA for more than 10 years.

Wanna know how many vets have quit?

Some quit because they thought they were all better even though they really weren't.

Some quit because they never wanted to be there in the first place. They only went because their spouses or family members nagged them to go.

Some quit because they're afraid. It's a lotta freaking work. It isn't physical work but it is mental work and it's very stressful. The 7-week program put me in a position to do one year of prolonged exposure therapy which was incredibly stressful. Most veterans are in their comfort zone and they're deathly afraid of moving out of their comfort zone because that means changing and they don't wanna change because they're afraid.

So, why don't you wave your magic wand make those veterans unafraid so's they can get treatment and be all better, mmh?

We'll wait while you do that.

[Cida]

Originally Posted by Mircea

I see no evidence the VA failed him.

It's appalling that you would comment without any knowledge or understanding of the VA's mental health treatment programs.

Apparently you think the VA waves a magic wand over the US and vets suddenly want to be treated and rush to the nearest VA facility for treatment. That ain't how it works.

I hope you're not suggesting that no one should be allowed comment without previous expertise, or that people aren't allowed to be dismayed regardless of the circumstances.

[johnsonkk]

Originally Posted by Cida

I hope you're not suggesting that no one should be allowed comment without previous expertise, or that people aren't allowed to be dismayed regardless of the circumstances.

That’s not what was said. You’re trying to conflate this individual’s experience into the VA’s treatment for veterans, along with a sensational thread title. How much “dismay” will you be posting again and again?

You’ve posted, people opined, and the topics stay on topic vs. high jacking your own thread. We see what you’re trying to do here. If you’re looking for more rapid posts, suggest the P&OC forum.