Not Wanting Newcomers (Billings, Missoula, Great Falls: sales, new home, job market)

[Redraven]

When my youngest daughter got married, I went to the tux rental place and asked for a "Western cut" tux. Yep, a real "Maverick" suit, string tie and all!
Yeah, they got me in a "tux", but it was MY kind of tux!
I wore my black Tony's, too.
I ain't TOTALLY uncouth!

[romath]

dualradius,
If the first is true, then it's unlikely that the second is unless there is a concerted effort to keep the birthrate down in Montana. While some college towns in Montana, such as Bozeman, hang onto a chunk of their graduates for a long time, it's still like other provincial locations where most leave the region for work soon after graduation. There's simply not a job market for that many. That's in addition to adults bailing the state for lack of work (and very low wages).

The issue here about change is three fold: 1) retirees and second-home buyers have moved in, thus more home construction into former farm land; 2) they are not bringing any jobs (production) to speak of, thus inflation w/o much benefit in terms of manufacture or increase in wage levels; and 3) local business leaders and their ideologues love it, seeing $$ in construction, more income for local businesses, and the "recognition" of having national chains in their own towns, even if it means undermining locally-owned businesses (ah, the contradictions of capital). It also effects the environment. In Bozeman, for example, the town newspaper and some business leaders are declaring that there is a shortage of water and they need to dam up the back end of a canyon currently used year round for recreation, not because there actually is a shortage or anything close, but because their business plan for the next 20 years calls for a level of growth that requires it. Get the picture?

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by Redraven

When my youngest daughter got married, I went to the tux rental place and asked for a "Western cut" tux. Yep, a real "Maverick" suit, string tie and all!
Yeah, they got me in a "tux", but it was MY kind of tux!
I wore my black Tony's, too.
I ain't TOTALLY uncouth!

Now that's true western style!!

[strudel42]

When people from back east learn where I now live, they assume I've become a gun-toting horse-riding cowgirl. I haven't, and have no aspiration to, but that's how much of the country views the state: crazy, wild, frontier territory. I too agree that people who move here believe they can sort of create their own reality. The homestead mythology lives on. Of course, as with anywhere else you'd move, there are local customs and mores that a newcomer is expected to at least accept, if not exactly conform to.

I find the constant pull between the "rodeo" set and the "ballet" set to be extremely tiresome. Neither group is particularly accepting of the other, and here most of us are, stuck somewhere in the middle (although I lean strongly towards rodeo, myself). Each side gets defensive when they perceive the other to be taking over, which prevents any real dialogue. Nobody, anywhere, wants their way of life threatened, and that's no different here than anywhere else. But both sides would probably be happier if each attempted to understand the other.

[Redraven]

But I have no desire to "understand" the "BALLET SET", I just want to ignore them, and I desire them to do the same for me.
They can have their sophisticated culture. I want nothing to do with it. I am perfectly happy in my boots and jeans.
By the way, I AM one of those "people from back East", but the area of PA that I came from is as, if not more, rural than much of Montana. I can still remember going back there and selling silver dollars to the locals for $2 each! Great fun!
We migrated about 60 years ago...

[strudel42]

Well, nobody's forcing you to go to a ballet just like you're not forcing anyone to put on boots (or are you? ).

The way I see it, if the two sides continue to act like kids giving each other the silent treatment, there will be no resolution to what many see as the problem of "newcomers" to the state. It's a big old state; there's probably room for everyone... somewhere... right? Just not in my/your/Huey Lewis's backyard...

I came to Montana because I wanted to be where I could mind my own business and not be bothered. This has largely worked out for me, but for a state that prides itself on a live-and-let-live attitude, there's a lot of strife.

[Reziac]

Originally Posted by strudel42

I came to Montana because I wanted to be where I could mind my own business and not be bothered. This has largely worked out for me, but for a state that prides itself on a live-and-let-live attitude, there's a lot of strife.

That's because a lot of the newcomers are trying to force their metro-culture ways on what is fundamentally a rural culture -- and fail to realise they are doing so, or don't care so long as they get their way. Meanwhile the locals are saying, "Hey, I don't mind your ballet; stop complaining about my rodeo!"

Same thing pretty much everywhere that's experienced growth primarily from a disproportionate influx of people from far away, rather than proportional growth from within.

[strudel42]

Maybe I don't fully understand. Can somebody clarify for me in what way exactly the introduction of, say, a ballet in a Montana town constitutes a force-feed of metropolitan culture? I mean, I guess we have ballet here; I imagine it's somewhere, but I don't really know 'cause I don't pay attention to it. Ballet or lack of ballet has no effect on my life. Anyone else who does not care for ballet, I would imagine, would harbor the same attitude.

Now I can understand if our theoretical ballet is a civic endeavor funded by taxpayers why people would object to it. But let's assume for the sake of argument that our ballet is privately funded (and there's a rodeo at the fairgrounds that same night, so we're gonna go to that anyway)... is this perceived as a threat to Montana culture? And if so, why?

IMO, most people who move here are those who genuinely like it here, and want to stay... not people with an agenda to alter the fundamental culture of the state.

History is full of tales of "natives" resenting "newcomers". Why? Isn't the influx of people of differing backgrounds and traditions what, supposedly, makes this country a pretty cool place to live? And of course, ALL of us of European descent (i.e., most of Montana's population) are "newcomers" of some sort.

[Reziac]

The problem isn't the new ballet. No one objects to the ballet, in fact most will be pleased to have it (do remember that those ancient downtown theatres were used for travelling opera companies and the like, long before they became movie houses!) The problem is when fans of the newly-arrived ballet start complaining, and eventually lobbying to nuke the long-established rodeo, because the rodeo smells bad and makes dust, and therefore "spoils our enjoyment of the ballet". Simplified example but that's what it boils down to.

Not much different (if less economically destructive) than when a new subdivision starts complaining about the feedlot that was there 50 years before the first house was built, and eventually becomes so vociferous that the feedlot is forcibly closed (usually by the authorities declining to renew their permits) if only to shut up the subdivision's endless complaints. This is not a theoretical example; it happens with some regularity everywhere "civilization" encroaches on agriculture.

I'm reminded of this old saw:
There are two kinds of fools:
One says "This is old, and therefore good."
The other says "This is new, and therefore better."

[cumminszhere]

I'll give another example. The residents living near a neighborhood school lobbied the city council and complained about people dropping their kids off at said school. Too much traffic they said. So the city council authorized a traffic study and subsequently enforced new traffic restrictions on a few of the drop off points. This will increase the burden on the remaining location.

So let me get this straight. You move in next to a school, them complain about the associated traffic? I'd like to B-slap every one of those people.

Unbelievable.

This is in California not Montana, btw.