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The sexual subculture that I'm part of is so intense on consent rules along the lines of "no touching anyone, or their stuff, without permission" that it includes social hugging. They encourage people at community events and activities to ask "hug?" before going in for one.
From my perspective, a hug doesn’t have anything to do with sex or consent rules; I wouldn’t want to hug someone I barely knew and/or if I didn’t know it would be welcome. If you have to ask or don’t know how it will be received, just don’t do it; it’s likely overstepping, and I wouldn’t have any interest in doing so anyway. However, with close friends and family, you know the huggers (and it’s usually women).
After my father died a male family friend gave me a hug and asked if there was anything he could do. Perfectly appropriate. After that he hugged me any time he saw me, one time I had my arms crossed in front of me and he told to give him a hug.
Then I found out some men use the hug trend to get off on close physical contact with women. Points for attractive ones.
There was a Halloween joke about making a haunted house for women and one idea was to have it full of smiling men with their arms out saying "where's my hug at?"
I do not initiate hugs but I get them some what regularly.
There are too many criteria for this show of affection.
Some are genuine some are superficial, and some are suggestive.
Each person has different motivation.
I try to be sensitive to each person. some want only a knuckle bump, and that's fine.
Some want a hand shake hard, or firm and some soft, and some just tap the fingers.
Coved changed a lot of things.
Both men and women hug me, I don't push it either way.
Most are in church but some are not affiliated with any church at all that want this attention.
If I am in an environment that some one that recognizes me and comes for a hug I allow it, but then sometimes onlookers seem to want to do it as well.
I'm no one special really, that just the way things are here.
From my perspective, a hug doesn’t have anything to do with sex or consent rules; I wouldn’t want to hug someone I barely knew and/or if I didn’t know it would be welcome. If you have to ask or don’t know how it will be received, just don’t do it; it’s likely overstepping, and I wouldn’t have any interest in doing so anyway. However, with close friends and family, you know the huggers (and it’s usually women).
Right, but this is an effort to really reinforce the idea that you just do not put your hands on other people without asking first, at all - and in the context of these very adult parties, it is a good thing to get people to work on and be mindful of. A hug may not in and of itself be sexual, but the context of those events generally is.
Hell, I've been in communications classes where people were asked to practice giving and receiving a "no" to these requests, because part of it is getting people comfortable with considering and respecting boundaries, and part of it is training some who have weak boundaries themselves, in how to say no when they want to, and to feel comfortable that it's always OK to say no.
Also, consent is not just about sex, anyways.
The other thing there is that we have a lot of autistic, introverted, socially awkward, and various sorts of neurodivergent members at the club, we welcome many kinds of people. The expansion of the idea of asking for what you want, and then taking a yes or no in a good spirit...rather than always having to play the "if you know, you know" game and reading unspoken cues or assuming things are not OK unless someone else initiates them...all that is harder for those who are even at the milder end of the spectrum. And we avoid a lot of instances where people err out of confusion or misunderstood signals that way, too.
Hell, I've been in communications classes where people were asked to practice giving and receiving a "no" to these requests, because part of it is getting people comfortable with considering and respecting boundaries, and part of it is training some who have weak boundaries themselves, in how to say no when they want to, and to feel comfortable that it's always OK to say no.
Also, consent is not just about sex, anyways.
I get that, but hugs are generally shared with friends (and others one is close to) relative to known social boundaries and situations. If I don’t know how a woman would perceive a hug (or she, me), then neither of us is in a situation in which it is appropriate or socially acceptable to hug. In other words, I’d simply not hug anyone rather than ask permission to do so or put her on the spot; from my perspective, it’s awkward and forced in most casual situations (especially relative to a ‘club’ or ‘sexual subculture’, per your post).
That said, if one is on a first date, absolutely - ask her and/or establish consent relative to a hug goodnight (or whatever).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
The other thing there is that we have a lot of autistic, introverted, socially awkward, and various sorts of neurodivergent members at the club, we welcome many kinds of people. The expansion of the idea of asking for what you want, and then taking a yes or no in a good spirit...rather than always having to play the "if you know, you know" game and reading unspoken cues or assuming things are not OK unless someone else initiates them...all that is harder for those who are even at the milder end of the spectrum. And we avoid a lot of instances where people err out of confusion or misunderstood signals that way, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
Right, but this is an effort to really reinforce the idea that you just do not put your hands on other people without asking first, at all - and in the context of these very adult parties, it is a good thing to get people to work on and be mindful of. A hug may not in and of itself be sexual, but the context of those events generally is.
Sure, I’m simply stating I wouldn’t be interested in such a scenario, yet alone would I be offering/asking for a hug relative to such.
I get that, but hugs are generally shared with friends (and others one is close to) relative to known social boundaries and situations. If I don’t know how a woman would perceive a hug (or she, me), then neither of us is in a situation in which it is appropriate or socially acceptable to hug. In other words, I’d simply not hug anyone rather than ask permission to do so or put her on the spot; from my perspective, it’s awkward and forced in most casual situations (especially relative to a ‘club’ or ‘sexual subculture’, per your post).
That said, if one is on a first date, absolutely - ask her and/or establish consent relative to a hug goodnight (or whatever).
Sure, I’m simply stating I wouldn’t be interested in such a scenario, yet alone would I be offering/asking for a hug relative to such.
I actually want to thank you for this example.
I know that my own experiences and social groups are not most people's cup of tea. For whatever it's worth (nothing, honestly) hugs are not awkward or forced at those events. It does make sense that you'd imagine it that way because you would not be there in the first place. The people who go, and who might be asking about hugs, have been going a while. They are friends, not strangers. They're comfortable there. But we are intentionally not assuming that someone who is our friend who has hugged us before, will necessarily feel like doing so today or this moment. Hence the asking. It is not "forced" precisely because if someone doesn't actually feel like being hugged just then, they feel comfortable saying no without feeling rude.
And as with many things, I have taken the more mindful behavioral frameworks from that subculture and applied them elsewhere in my life and it's worked very well...perhaps surprisingly well.
But what I've bolded there in your post, that's a perfect example of someone from a much more normal walk of life being in a situation where it makes sense to ask. Even if the ask is nonverbal, such as making a gesture that you'd like to hug someone but pausing a moment so that if they don't want to, they can decline. I've also had people who were present at social gatherings, where I met them that night but we talked a lot and it's been a good time, ask me "do you hug? I'm a hugger" at the end of the evening.
Are you homophobic? Outside of the US it is common to see people of the same sex hugging, holding hands, arms on each others shoulders and kissing the left & right facial cheek. Its all signs of friendship.
I live in France and we don’t hug in public. It’s either a handshake or cheek kiss (faire la bise), nor jace I seen many couples ( same or opposite sex) engaging in PDA’s. The French are pretty reserved when it comes to such activities.
The people who go, and who might be asking about hugs, have been going a while. They are friends, not strangers.
That’s my point, Sonic. From my perspective, friends don’t need to ask permission to hug; boundaries and various scenarios have already been established whereas on a first date they have not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
For whatever it's worth (nothing, honestly) hugs are not awkward or forced at those events. It does make sense that you'd imagine it that way because you would not be there in the first place.
True, I wouldn’t go to that type of ‘sexual subculture’ event, but I equate it to social gatherings I do attend. When I see someone I know well, we may greet each other with (and both go in for) a hug; there is no need to ask permission. Boundaries are already established (relative to a friendship), and the hug is clearly mutual.
However, it can seem awkward and forced in a group setting when folks are hugging (even when asking) others they barely know; there’s an air of superficiality about it, from my perspective, as if they know the person better than they do (or want to give that impression).
My wife and I hugged each other thruout 68 years of marriage,kind of ironic,just before she passed she asked me to sit while she took her meds,while sitting I started to stand,she said please sit, I like walking down the hall with you and as she stood at
the foot of the bed ,she smiled and said goodnight,her last words.She passed away on the side of the bed demntia.
I know that my own experiences and social groups are not most people's cup of tea. For whatever it's worth (nothing, honestly) hugs are not awkward or forced at those events. It does make sense that you'd imagine it that way because you would not be there in the first place. The people who go, and who might be asking about hugs, have been going a while. They are friends, not strangers. They're comfortable there. But we are intentionally not assuming that someone who is our friend who has hugged us before, will necessarily feel like doing so today or this moment. Hence the asking. It is not "forced" precisely because if someone doesn't actually feel like being hugged just then, they feel comfortable saying no without feeling rude.
And as with many things, I have taken the more mindful behavioral frameworks from that subculture and applied them elsewhere in my life and it's worked very well...perhaps surprisingly well.
But what I've bolded there in your post, that's a perfect example of someone from a much more normal walk of life being in a situation where it makes sense to ask. Even if the ask is nonverbal, such as making a gesture that you'd like to hug someone but pausing a moment so that if they don't want to, they can decline. I've also had people who were present at social gatherings, where I met them that night but we talked a lot and it's been a good time, ask me "do you hug? I'm a hugger" at the end of the evening.
It really isn't that strange.
Actually, that would seem kind of strange. Maybe for a kiss on the lips on the first date, but not a hug.
Its kind of like you are strangers after the date to ask on that.
On another point, I think hugs are less common post covid. Personally, it feels odd to even shake hands with strangers. When I was younger, except for a very limited number of people I was very protective of my personal space. I gradually got less that way, especially since my wife has a lot of huggy friends. But I have found myself getting more protective of my space again. Not as much as I was, but definitely more than pre-covid.
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