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Should men always try to go below what they think their level is, is that the key? And how do you know what level you're on?
People know what level they are if they aren't lying to themselves. There's a straight looks number but it can change based on other factors but you're not going to gain more than 1-2 yet you can easily lose 5 if you're awful.
I'm not saying that anyone shouldn't aim for whatever they want but to entirely dismiss 1/2 the us population of women bc they are heavier is not beneficial for successfully obtaining a relationship. I understand the "I'm not attracted to X type of women" but a lot of women who are 3s aren't naturally attracted to X types, either but they can adjust easier. They aren't going to dump an overall good guy bc they feel like it's either George Clooney or a vibrator.
I never understood why average looking men are so fat-phobic when weight is a changeable situation. I would think that a woman 20-50 lbs overweight who gets into a good relationship is more likely to drop a few especially if they hook up with a more active partner. Every friend of mine drops 15 lbs in a new relationship no matter if they needed to or not.
Bottom line for either sex is the less people you eliminate from the pool equals more possibilities if that's what you want.
But it's their life and whatever is fine. I would just hope that they have some positive female friends, co workers, etc bc any type of self imposed isolation can not be good for mental health and overall perspective, i.e. you can become a weirdo.
Well, I love to hunt and fish, but yeah, I can actually; a lot better. Like a woman who understands that a hunting/fishing club is a male bastion, and a place designed to allow men to get away from our feminist society, not a place that women should invade(like they've done in the NFL, NBA, UFC...). One who understands that men prefer women who are feminine, which does not include driving trucks, shooting guns, fighting, etc. One who will meet us at the door when we come home, and try to make us comfortable. That would be a lot more attractive than the bull daggers you're talking about.
As someone who identifies at least as partly if not mostly MGTOW, I agree with and see why a number of men like the movement and what it represents but there is diversity among those who classify themselves as this. Men Going Their Own Way is a way of living your life in some or many ways that is different than societal expectations and living according to how you define yourself and not how a woman or society wants to define you. A number of straight men define themselves knowingly or unknowingly by their jobs or income and how these may influence dating decisions. I, along with a number of men have found quite a few women in our lives to be more trouble than their worth. With a 50% divorce rate and a number of marriage partners engaging in infidelity, I personally don't see the point of marriage. I see it as a risky proposition at best and something the government should not be involved in at all.
I make average middle class income so I'm not someone who would be targeted by some woman interested primarily in a man's income but I see my unhappily married guy friends from different income levels. The divorced ones can be bitter and a number of them regret even getting married. I have seen kids lives turned upside down by courts who almost always favor females and wonder why I would want to have kids with a woman these days. It's a crapshoot. Many MGTOW men are anti-marriage for good practical reasons. We also get sick of women pressuring men into marriage and such. My bachelor life has freedoms no married man usually has. My money is my money, no matter how little I have of it. Same with possessions. My time is spent on my terms. I can have a relationship or I don't have to. If it's not working out, I don't have to worry about hiring some divorce attorney or bickering over child custody with some ex-wife and her attorney. I don't have to pretend my marriage is better than it is or have to endure year after year of misery in a relationship because I fear what happens in the case of a divorce. I don't have those issues. Married men do.
The idea that a man is some loser if he is not married is stupid in my opinion. The men or women who say such things are constrained in their thinking I guess. Men in MGTOW define our lives HOW we want on our terms. If I want to donate some years of my life to charitable things, I could if I want. If I wanted to live in another place or state, I could if I wanted without some wife nagging me. There are women who actually shame men through talk who don't want to get married. They think men should be married. Well my miserable married male friends can tell you just how crappy that is. I could give a crap what women think about how I live my life to be honest. There are few happily married men in my opinion these days. There are also a number of them who lie about just how happy they are also. There are more women turning away from marriage also but there is more societal pressure to marry if a woman.
I think this movement will only continue to grow. More people are marrying later or coming to the conclusion that marriage just isn't worth it. I don't see marriage as lifelong monogamy to be even natural mostly. The statistics bear this out but we as humans put our nose in the sands apparently pretending that being tied to one person with complete sexual fidelity over a period of 20-60 years is realistic for most. It's not. Humans are mostly serial monogamists and some are not even that. Why stand in front of many people and say these vows if you see so many who can't follow them. That's called denial of reality. People think sometimes that their marriage will be the exception. It rarely is. It's called delusional thinking at that point. Yes, there are people who can stay faithful over a 50 year marriage, not saying it's not possible..but let's not fool ourselves that it is the norm. It's not.
As a side note, there are many different types of men from ALL backgrounds, income levels, races and religious beliefs or lack thereof in the MGTOW movement. To stereotype is usually foolish. I think this also pertains to women who self identify as feminists. There is also a line of thinking about sexuality of MGTOW men, that all we want is to sleep around and be promiscuous. That doesn't describe me and it doesn't describe other men. There are certainly men who do identify this way and want tons of sexual partners. The movement is not all about sexuality and marriage although those play into it's themes. It's what the title implies..men making life choices on their terms.
Last edited by Texan2008; 03-09-2017 at 04:10 AM..
It's just a growing movement. Men choose how far they want to take it. Some men choose to live their lives completely without women. Those would be the most extreme ones though. On the other side of it you have men that are happy to date women (usually non-monogamously and without paying for everything) but aren't going to get married of have children.
Although I don't really consider myself to be MGTOW, I do not plan on having children and I certainly am not going to get married. I do currently have a girlfriend though.
It all stemmed from guys being tired of getting the short end of the stick in society and the legal system so they choose to opt out of the expectations that society has put on them. In a way it is quite similar to how early feminists were fed up with societies expections of women (being domestic and subservient to their husbands) so they chose to oppose those expectations. Although many MGTOWs are antifeminists the groups are seperate.
I see MGTOW as primarily an economic movement. There is no way for young men to afford to support a family, and by the time they are earning enough to afford children they are too old. Either you consign yourself to a life of poverty while you are young, or you consign yourself to a life of poverty in retirement.
It's interesting to see the amount of hostility and shaming from women just because men have come to the realization that they have no positive role in a feminist world. That doesn't mean they can't be sexually active. It's fairly early to be a player with young cuties well into your 30s, then fish around for a woman who has already had her kids and had her tubes tied, or has reached menopause and isn't going to be making any babies. By the time they start seeing a few wrinkles and gray hairs, they get more humble about their desirability.
It's the same old feminist double standard. You watch them in groups. "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle!" Cheers, chants and fist bumps, but when men decide, "I don't need this ****," the hostility comes out. It's not like men have much of a choice. Maybe half of men can afford to support the 20th century ideal, the other half just have to get along as best they can.
Thanks for your post Texan. It sounds to me like your embrace is of a movement wherein you're just worried about yourself, and not anyone else. By not being involved with other people, one can focus solely on one's own happiness. Is that a correct summation?
All I would say to you Texan is that other people's struggles and failures need not define your own life ... I too know many divorced people, as well as many happily married people. Neither of those things really has anything to do with the success or failure of my own marriage. That's all on me and my wife, completely independent of whatever goes on in other people's marriages.
I'd also note that many people are happily married, myself being one of them. Your post makes sense if all marriages were bad things, but many marriages are wonderful things. Best thing I ever did in my life was meet my wife and get married. I don't think the MGTOW movement accounts for the fact that many people ARE happy being married or otherwise involved with a person romantically.
Since this is a psychology forum ... I'd kind of like to see what the average parents of a MGTOW adherent were like. I'm one of those people who thinks one's parents, and the challenges or positives they give to their children, have a lot to do with how one's personality turns out, and I'd be curious to see what inputs lead to people going their own way because I bet there's more to it than solely their failure to find a good partner.
It's interesting to see the amount of hostility and shaming from women just because men have come to the realization that they have no positive role in a feminist world.
I don't have a problem with men deciding that marriage is not for them. Nobody should shame anyone, be it male or female, into marriage.
Where I think the MGTOW movement falls down is that they seem to spend way more time talking about how worthless and stupid women are, how they're all tramps who are just out to cheat and mooch off men, and then all they do is get fat and ugly anyway, what's the point in having anything to do with them.
There are all kinds of MGTOWs I suppose, but so many times here on this forum I've asked guys who either are MGTOW (or sympathize with them) to explain why the MGTOW site has so many really nasty memes and articles about women. Women aren't good for anything. Women have no interests and everything they do is inferior to men. All women do is spread STDs and so forth. Really? Really? I can understand how a man might not want the hassle of marriage (with its risk of divorce court and everything) but so much of the content on the MGTOW site paints women (all women) to be horrible, morally bankrupt tramps, like they're all evil or something.
I see MGTOW as primarily an economic movement. There is no way for young men to afford to support a family, and by the time they are earning enough to afford children they are too old. Either you consign yourself to a life of poverty while you are young, or you consign yourself to a life of poverty in retirement.
It's interesting to see the amount of hostility and shaming from women just because men have come to the realization that they have no positive role in a feminist world. That doesn't mean they can't be sexually active. It's fairly early to be a player with young cuties well into your 30s, then fish around for a woman who has already had her kids and had her tubes tied, or has reached menopause and isn't going to be making any babies. By the time they start seeing a few wrinkles and gray hairs, they get more humble about their desirability.
It's the same old feminist double standard. You watch them in groups. "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle!" Cheers, chants and fist bumps, but when men decide, "I don't need this ****," the hostility comes out. It's not like men have much of a choice. Maybe half of men can afford to support the 20th century ideal, the other half just have to get along as best they can.
Interesting perspective.
I'm 30 and I've seen the children thing play out numerous times with friends and coworkers over the years. One of my best friends from high school was raised in an extremely religious family - was married at 20 to a girl who was 17 and also religious. They had three kids by the time he was 25 - money was always extremely tight. She never worked.
He ended up leaving his wife for some hot young thing, married her, and now has another baby on the way. Alimony and child support for three kids to wife #1 have to be killing him. He was the manager of his now wife (fast food workers) and was fired from his job for sleeping with a subordinate, so I'm sure his income took a hit.
Uncle is a 1%er for this area - two kids, told wife and family he was leaving them for his gorgeous dog trainer on Christmas Eve. Alimony to previous wife is $5k/month for ten years (he's now in year five), child support for the two daughters (both were under 18 then - oldest is graduating college this year, youngest is starting college this fall), their college educations, and a $250,000 condo (expensive for east TN). She came to his business and threatened to stab him and stabbed the desk instead - I have the desk now and it has a big gash in it. Second wife hasn't worked in over twenty years. He'll be 67 when the alimony ends.
He married the dog trainer, divorced her, remarried her, divorced again. She's gotten at least $100,000 in cash in the divorce settlement for less than four years of marriage, a condo, an Escalade, he paid $80,000 of her student loan debt. Ended up selling his $100,000 boat and a Porsche Cayman S at her request. Ended up getting arrested on a domestic violence charge that was dismissed, but the mugshot is the first thing you find when you Google him - great for the clients.
He's MGTOW now, though I don't know how long it will last. He'd certainly had been better off with no women in his life.
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