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If my peace of mind were to come at the price of my intellect, well, it wouldn't be peace of mind at all.
OP, I've posted a few times in the Atheism subforum, once in a thread I called "the false comfort that religion offers" (it's here: http:////www.city-data.com/forum/ath...on-offers.html ). That was shortly after my mother died (and no, she didn't "pass," she DIED), and of course her death (yes, her DEATH, not her "passing" -- I really hate euphemisms like that) was very hard.
So I do understand where you're coming from, but I really do not want to turn off my brain -- and that is what (most) religions require.
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P.S. IIRC, I'm an INTJ too -- and that type is apparently extremely rare among women.
I find I'm probably more agnostic in my views than atheist. Atheism assumes too much in my opinion. My MIL died a year ago tomorrow.
Have had more death in the family than I like to think about. The psychology behind religion is what is fascinating to me. What drives it, I suspected it's a way to cope with death, but I don't know.
Is it as simple as we're just plants with self-awareness? We are born, grow and die??? I don't know.
I read your post and definitely had thoughts. I'm still not sure if it's a good idea to share them, though.
I don't envy believers. Very few of the ones I know really have peace of mind. I mean, sure, when their loved ones pass, perhaps they find comfort in the idea that Grandma is in Heaven, a better place. That a benevolent God has us all in His hand, safe from certain threats, that people get only what they deserve and deserve only what they get, even if it doesn't seem that way...well...God works in mysterious ways, must be something He knew that we didn't.
OK. But for most I've known, where the rubber meets the road in day to day life, they are often much more engaged in digging a chasm between their in-group and everybody else, and being upset about every other person who does not share their beliefs and is therefore a threat.
I had a thought this morning, that 500 years ago give or take, I would surely have been burned as a witch. Not because I actually consider myself to be any such thing. I'm not into wicca or paganism or any kind of witchy stuff, none of that is of interest to me. No, I'd have been doomed because I do not believe in a sacred mandate of authority bestowed upon any other human being, that gives them the right and the wherewithal to tell me how to live my life. I would never gaze beatifically up at a man who stood in a high place declaiming himself to be the leader chosen by God to guide the poor ignorant masses to paradise (upon the corpses of their enemies first of course.) And fundamentally every religious institution I've ever seen that has gained any real traction in any big society has become more a means to control people and empower the guy who claims the mandate to exploit everyone else, than it has been about truly good philosophy and genuine faith. Refusal to submit and obey is probably the most unforgivable act, if one is a figure who knows that only faith driven compliance keeps the mob from overthrowing your life of power and privilege.
It's nothing but a big ol' pecking order of folks needing a hierarchy and to know their place in it, who they have to suck up to and who they get to push around. I'm not into that. Never was. I don't want to lead, I don't want to follow, I just want to live.
I am an ENTJ. A friend once told me that she did not believe this because I'm "not enough of an a-hole to be an ENTJ." I have no idea what that means.
The TJ part is what makes people think that INTJ's or ENTJ's are cold and distant. I don't care for the entire definition of what an INTJ as it is described as but whatever. I'm actually a pretty funny guy in real life and that doesn't seem to register on the descriptions of that personality type.
You not sharing your thoughts or a bit reluctant to is a new one to me. You are by far the most verbose open book characters I've ever seen here, not an insult, just an observation.
I don't think could ever really fully embrace organized religion as it stands now in my life. My now deceased FIL calls those types of people "joiners" which I'm not, I tend to be a lone wolf, to the point of being a problem. I still say that I'm envious of the believers because the one I've known seemed to be more at peace than I am. I've struggled my whole life with varying levels of depression and anxiety, it's like I wished I could be more ignorant at times, not that I'm saying religious people are ignorant, just saying.
Last edited by Chowhound; 04-01-2024 at 01:41 PM..
Let's talk about the MBTI in that context for a minute. It describes way we use our senses, experience the world and express our experience. But in no way does it mean that if someone is a T, a thinker, that means that they have no feelings. Nor does it mean that people who lead with their feeling preference are idiots. In fact it's rather rare for someone to be that limited.
Generally we all possess some of the opposite tendencies but the MBTI indicates our preferred method of existing in the world. In fact, the creators of the inventory suggest that the more a person can develop opposite tendencies the richer their life experience.
So when a thinker takes time out to enjoy a pleasant feeling he is not turning off his brain, he is just experiencing his world in a different way than he usually does. Most all of us do that, I think.
For instance in feeling worry about what may happen next a thinker may be able to calm those feelings using his brain. The train of thought may go: This anxiety, pain, whatever, is bad for my health. There are other ways to look at my situation that can soothe me. I can realize that it is common to the human experience and I am not alone. No matter how much I dwell on it I can't change the situation so why waste the energy? Even the stark realization that someday this will all be over with.
Similar rationalizations might help calm a person's unhappiness but in a sense you could also say that reasoning to provide relief is also a false comfort. But most of us take comfort wherever we can find it when we need it.
I've never felt jealous of believers' peace of mind, but I have envied (to a degree) the apparent peace of mind some people have based on being very satisfied with simple things.
I'm not referring to material possessions, but rather people who seem peaceful with simple jobs, relationships, living arrangements, vacations, etc.
I know myself well enough to know I would not have peace of mind knowing that the rest of my life was pretty well mapped out. Living in the same town, going to Florida two weeks a year, etc. I can sometimes be a little envious of people that are good with that, it must be nice having so much 'brain bandwidth' to spare not having to process so much.
The promise of something or someone who cares about you and the idea of a beautiful afterlife that organized religion proposed must of had some appeal.
It can’t have appeal if you don’t believe in it; hence, why would you be envious of such? Regarding a psychology thread, is it possible you’re jealous/resentful for other reasons i.e. they have ‘someone who cares’/a loving partner (or relative to their life/happiness, in general).
You gotta forget that church bs and just go straight to the Source.
This comment surprised me! You're right, though, I think. And it is within us (or within our power, if you must,) activated by something exterior. I don't think Agnostics such as the OP are doomed to no peace of mind because of their option-open stance. The practice of good psychology depends on it.
I think that's something most could agree upon. Some may disagree that true inner peace can't come from any source but religion but I don't think they have a patent on it.
The source of peace of mind lies within practicing certain spiritual, again, not religious, principles. We all know Atheists who do this.
One semester I took a course in Comparative Religion, great class, the professor led the group with a light touch, letting the discussion go where it would but keeping it on course.
We'd read a detailed overview on a certain religion and then come to explore it further. Atheism was discussed as well but Greek and Norse mythology were not part of the study.
I had been brought up like most of us with semi-regular church going, my parents weren't denominational, the closest Protestant church was where we went.
In my early 20s I was curious to know other perspectives and open to what they offered.
Some told the origins of the earth and mankind with fantastical imagery and poetic language.
Some focused intensely on the physical and material world to achieve harmony with nature.
Some were practical methods for surviving and prospering, even to using deception, amidst a cold heartless world.
All of them, as I remember, tried to reconcile the chanciness of life, the shift from life to death in an instant. And why there was life in the first place.
In terms of complexity, elevated understanding, in-depth analysis, theory, morality the two standouts were Judaism and Christianity. Could be cultural bias on my part but the two of them combined painted the most complete picture.
Judaism alone doesn't complete the circle and Christianity isn't understandable without it's foundation in Judaism.
The Torah, or Old Testament, is the history of the often painful lessons the Jews learned from God and how they, often unwillingly, course corrected.
The New Testament, shaped mainly by the letters of Saul of Taurus, Paul, teaches how to live in Christ's Love in a Roman world hostile to it. Intensely theoretical as befits a scholar of the Talmud, Paul's letters explain Christ's mission and purpose and meaning.
In their own way all religions attempt to make sense of this crazy world!
The decision to follow a theological philosophy is intellectual not emotional. It's almost like deciding to love someone, the physical and emotional is one thing, the decision to love is quite another.
Thanks for this, R&P. Think you summed it up well.
It reminded me of what else I wanted to say about our spiritual side. It's like a bar graph with a horizontal and a vertical axis. The horizontal measures our worldly dealings (thinking and doing) and the vertical measures our connection to a source of strength (our feeling and motivation.)
Christians note that it is in the shape of a cross and say that our connection with a Savior is only as good as the way we live our life on earth. I agree with that in the sense that what we say and do is connected to our motivation and only as good as our intention.
Believers and nonbelievers all struggle with that one.
The TJ part is what makes people think that INTJ's or ENTJ's are cold and distant. I don't care for the entire definition of what an INTJ as it is described as but whatever. I'm actually a pretty funny guy in real life and that doesn't seem to register on the descriptions of that personality type.
You not sharing your thoughts or a bit reluctant to is a new one to me. You are by far the most verbose open book characters I've ever seen here, not an insult, just an observation.
I don't think could ever really fully embrace organized religion as it stands now in my life. My now deceased FIL calls those types of people "joiners" which I'm not, I tend to be a lone wolf, to the point of being a problem. I still say that I'm envious of the believers because the one I've known seemed to be more at peace than I am. I've struggled my whole life with varying levels of depression and anxiety, it's like I wished I could be more ignorant at times, not that I'm saying religious people are ignorant, just saying.
I don't think anything you are describing has much to do with it. I'm a very strong INTJ and not a joiner at all, but I believe.
Don't think this thread will give you the answers you seek. Faith is a choice, not something you are wired to have or not have.
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