Why are Christians so Insecure in their Faith? (hell, church, atheist)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
After several days of engaging them, presenting evidence from the OT itself showing that Jesus was not the Messiah - I got a notice saying "You are BANNED, heretic!" Yes, I'm paraphrasing.
Why was I banned without even a warning?
"Rule Violation!"
What rule did I violate? I can't even ask them because.... I am BANNED!
So much for them having confidence in their apologetics. Cowards.
That topic could possibly get you banned/ infraction in this Christianity sub forum too - it would be more appropriate in the main Religion& Spirituality forum , fyi.
Insecure? Lots of reasons. You mention the OT. Following the Exile in Babylon, surely there were some Jews who were doing rather well for themselves in Babylon, and chose NOT to return to Israel along with the others. The sense of a distinctive identity was diluted or forgotten, altogether.
The same thing is going on here these days. Christians are Christians, yes--- by virtue of having been baptized. But their faith is not primary to their identity. They are Americans, first. Shoppers first. Consumers first. Liberals or Conservatives first. And so, churches are shrinking. So many who ARE active and involved in the churches are among those who see religion as a thing to be tacked-onto everything else they are busy with. It's just not a defining characteristic of who they are, essentially. And how many times have I seen trivialities become ISSUES with these people????!!!
Retired Anglican Bishop N.T. Wright was asked, on a visit to the States, what is the main problem he sees with the church(es) here in this country. His response: "you're not united, and you don't care that you're not united."
He doesn't mean uniformity. But he is reflecting the American church-disease: no sense of history; no sense of ecclesiology, either. What is ecclesiology? It is a term referring to the church's own sense of its internal identity and purpose. ... But ANY schmoo can wake up one morning here in the good ol' USofA and start a business--- and call it a "church." With no theological education, no learning in church history, biblical exegesis--- nothing. So sad. And it happens all the time. Just three blocks from me, there's a guy who's doing it, and has some sort of "congregation" of his own that meets in his own independent, self-styled Bleeding Heart Of The Lamb Of God Full Bible Truth and Sabbath "church" on SATURDAY.
The churches today demand not very much at all of their members. Members are rather incapable of defending their beliefs. MOST, anyhow. Church is a thing you do in order to stay respectable. And it's handy for weddings and funerals, too. (sarcasm, there.)
If you read them, you'd know what rule you violated.
Not necessarily. People who do not break rules, and even people who are protected under the first amendment to state their opinion have been banned and canceled lately. Even people that follow the rules are not safe under the snowflakes that create them and cannot cope with anyone else having a different opinion.
So prove, or provide evidence from the OT that Jesus is not the Messiah. Keep in mind that the NT does present Jesus as the Messiah. Keep in mind also that the reason many or most Jews of Jesus' day rejected Jesus as the Messiah was because he did not meet the Jewish expectation of what the Messiah was to be and claimed that he did not fulfill the OT prophecies about the Messiah, which is easily explained by the fact that while Jesus did fulfill certain OT prophecies about the Messiah, certain other ones were and are to be fulfilled when he returns.
For instance, in Luke 4:18-19 Jesus quotes part of the prophecy in Isaiah 61:1 and following. The part that he quoted he says was fulfilled. But the remainder of the prophecy which he did not quote is to be fulfilled at his second appearance or coming.
Sure thing.
When I wanted to know what the bible said about how we would recognize the Messiah, I went to the source - the OT, and the undisputed experts on the subject, OT Jewish scholars - since they literally wrote the book on it. I supplemented my study by speaking with and studying the works of several Hebrew scholars, and a few dozen Jewish Rabbis.
What I learned of Jewish eschatology on the Messiah, is summarized here, although similar compilations are legion:
You'll note that the original attributes are significant in what they do NOT include:
A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
Any divine qualities
Along with many other alleged attributes ascribed to Jesus only decades after his death.
The attributes that ARE included by the original experts - were not fulfilled by Jesus, and he was rightly rejected as the Messiah, just as other posers have been.
So what happened? This is where it gets ugly, as I have not found a nice way of saying the gospel authors lied.
But they lied. They knew these attributes full well as learned Jews, but lied about it anyway. I surmise that they felt comfortable doing so because their intended victims were not knowledgeable Jews but pagans completely ignorant of Judaism. There is a reason why not a single word about Jesus was written down until decades after his death. It's because the early church needed time to create their narrative and invent their new religion. It's why they desperately were in need of apologetics. They created so many holes between what the OT promised and what Jesus delivered, that to this day they scramble to make their new religion cogent. But it's a mess.
So, any prophesies in the NT that are claimed to be Messianic must match what the Hebrews wrote. They don't. There are basically only 9 attributes listed by the experts. Now, I have to listen to Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled hundreds of 'prophesies'. And other Christians that now claim that every single word of the bible is a prophesy of Jesus. I'll leave that to more credulous minds to explain.
Finally, yet another failure of the Christian dogma is the claim that Jesus is going to come back and fulfill prophesies. There is no concept in Hebrew eschatology that says the Messiah would have to come back. This is just another latter day invention of the early church - necessary only because even those early pagan converts were smart enough to question why the prophesies they were being taught were not fulfilled.
If you read them, you'd know what rule you violated.
Unless there was no rule violation..... And I was banned because I made them so uncomfortable. I know quite a few Atheists that this has happened to.
What kind of site refuses to disclose the violation committed? I've been on many sites where a warning is given to a poster first that plainly explains things like - "you used profanity in violation of our rules"..... "you need to attack the argument, not the poster"... ". This is how a site with integrity conducts itself.
That topic could possibly get you banned/ infraction in this Christianity sub forum too - it would be more appropriate in the main Religion& Spirituality forum , fyi.
By what logic would a post about a Christian site not be appropriate in a Christianity forum?
The site you linked DOES state that on particular sub-forums.
It has nothing to do with them being "cowards."
But not on the sub forum I was engaging. They claimed to welcome Atheists. And now do not have the integrity to explain what rule they claim was violated. You're of course welcome to defend that kind of behavior. It's cowardice to me.
When I wanted to know what the bible said about how we would recognize the Messiah, I went to the source - the OT, and the undisputed experts on the subject, OT Jewish scholars - since they literally wrote the book on it. I supplemented my study by speaking with and studying the works of several Hebrew scholars, and a few dozen Jewish Rabbis.
What I learned of Jewish eschatology on the Messiah, is summarized here, although similar compilations are legion:
You'll note that the original attributes are significant in what they do NOT include:
A virgin birth
A crucifixion
A resurrection
Any divine qualities
Along with many other alleged attributes ascribed to Jesus only decades after his death.
The attributes that ARE included by the original experts - were not fulfilled by Jesus, and he was rightly rejected as the Messiah, just as other posers have been.
So what happened? This is where it gets ugly, as I have not found a nice way of saying the gospel authors lied.
But they lied. They knew these attributes full well as learned Jews, but lied about it anyway. I surmise that they felt comfortable doing so because their intended victims were not knowledgeable Jews but pagans completely ignorant of Judaism. There is a reason why not a single word about Jesus was written down until decades after his death. It's because the early church needed time to create their narrative and invent their new religion. It's why they desperately were in need of apologetics. They created so many holes between what the OT promised and what Jesus delivered, that to this day they scramble to make their new religion cogent. But it's a mess.
So, any prophesies in the NT that are claimed to be Messianic must match what the Hebrews wrote. They don't. There are basically only 9 attributes listed by the experts. Now, I have to listen to Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled hundreds of 'prophesies'. And other Christians that now claim that every single word of the bible is a prophesy of Jesus. I'll leave that to more credulous minds to explain.
Finally, yet another failure of the Christian dogma is the claim that Jesus is going to come back and fulfill prophesies. There is no concept in Hebrew eschatology that says the Messiah would have to come back. This is just another latter day invention of the early church - necessary only because even those early pagan converts were smart enough to question why the prophesies they were being taught were not fulfilled.
I'm assuming that you are Jewish. But even if you're not you are just making the same old Jewish arguments against Jesus as the Messiah. There are many Messianic Jews who disagree with your views and do recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. Your assumptions that the gospel writers lied and that the early church invented a second coming of Jesus are only your opinion; nothing more. The apostles of Jesus did not suffer and in at least some cases, die, for what they knew was a lie.
I suspect that you are also in violation of the rules for this forum since you are basically saying that Christianity is a lie. This thread will most likely be shut down. Read the forum rules.
I'm assuming that you are Jewish. But even if you're not you are just making the same old Jewish arguments against Jesus as the Messiah. There are many Messianic Jews who disagree with your views and do recognize that Jesus is the Messiah. Your assumptions that the gospel writers lied and that the early church invented a second coming of Jesus are only your opinion; nothing more. The apostles of Jesus did not suffer and in at least some cases, die, for what they knew was a lie.
I suspect that you are also in violation of the rules for this forum since you are basically saying that Christianity is a lie. This thread will most likely be shut down. Read the forum rules.
And yet the 'same old Jewish arguments' are grounded in the word of your god as stated in the bible - which has been shown. Why do you reject the evidence from the actual experts on Messianic prophesy? It seems an especially egregious form of cherry picking.
'Many Messianic Jews' is a gross overstatement. Of 15 million Jews, there are only some 350,000 - less than 3% - in that group. It is fringe. It's like saying since 3% of scientists reject evolution - that proves evolution is false. But hey, if your position is that we should credit the views of a group that left their religion - it would only be consistent for you to also credit the views of us Atheists that left our religion. Right?
The gospel authors lied. It is not my opinion. It is a proven fact that no virgin birth was prophesied for the Messiah in Jewish eschatology, as I have already shown. No one has refuted this with anything other than unevidenced claims. And this romantic notion of apostles suffering as martyrs has no source outside of the church. This is intellectually equivalent to "The bible is true because the bible authors say so."
So if telling the Truth and supporting it from both scripture and outside sources is a violation in this forum, I'd be happy to be directed to a forum where the documented truths are accepted.
And yet the 'same old Jewish arguments' are grounded in the word of your god as stated in the bible - which has been shown. Why do you reject the evidence from the actual experts on Messianic prophesy? It seems an especially egregious form of cherry picking.
'Many Messianic Jews' is a gross overstatement. Of 15 million Jews, there are only some 350,000 - less than 3% - in that group. It is fringe. It's like saying since 3% of scientists reject evolution - that proves evolution is false. But hey, if your position is that we should credit the views of a group that left their religion - it would only be consistent for you to also credit the views of us Atheists that left our religion. Right?
The gospel authors lied. It is not my opinion. It is a proven fact that no virgin birth was prophesied for the Messiah in Jewish eschatology, as I have already shown. No one has refuted this with anything other than unevidenced claims. And this romantic notion of apostles suffering as martyrs has no source outside of the church. This is intellectually equivalent to "The bible is true because the bible authors say so."
So if telling the Truth and supporting it from both scripture and outside sources is a violation in this forum, I'd be happy to be directed to a forum where the documented truths are accepted.
The Jews misunderstood the prophecies concerning the Messiah as do you. But Jesus did show himself to be the Messiah. You are free to reject that as you obviously do. But the Gospel writers did not lie and neither did the apostle Paul who being a Jewish Pharisee had nothing to gain by giving up the life he had as a Pharisee to proclaim Jesus. Paul had it made as a Pharisee, yet gave it up for a very hard life in which he suffered much and was finally martyred.
And 350,000 Messianic Jews is a lot of Jews regardless of their percentage of total Jews.
Further, it is not a proven fact that no virgin birth was prophesied. Messianic Jewish scholars Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Michael Brown, and Michael Rydelnik have all given good arguments that Isaiah 7:14 has both a near term and a long term aspect to it which I won't go into here.
Your arguments are nothing new and are tiresome. Believe what you will but don't think that you can impress me with your arguments.
You should have posted this thread on the Religion forum where it is permitted.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
