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both of which are irrelevant to paths of religion and spirituality. in the same way a person's bank account, a person's hair color, and a person's pantry are irrelevant to paths of religion and spirituality.
Because listing irrelevant things make relevant things irrelevant.
Daoists certainly see the relevance of science (and other rational tools), as did the Mohists. Perhaps you do not because you know your theological opinions can not survive rational arguments.
If God told the people the sun was millions of miles away, how would they comprehend it?
Ancient people are capable of comprehending great distances. They did travel around back then. Going from point A to point B where the distance between the two were so great that if they were at point A, they wouldn't be able to see point B. "Millions of miles" is a modern thing, so telling them that is the the sun's distance and/or telling them an entirely wrong thing would be something a stupid god would do. Instead, a smart God would tell them about the true distance of the sun in a way that they could comprehend.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
If God told the people the planets they see in the sky weren't the same in nature as the fixed stars around them, how would they understand it?
That's because they're smarter than you, hence why understood that the moon is different from the sun and the earth.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
The people spoke as they understood what they were seeing. So they weren't wrong, but were describing things that did in fact exist. There are no scriptures speaking about the world resting on a turtle, or a giant holding it up. Yet as for pillars, that is not a problem because a pillar is what they used to describe how the world was fixed, and the things around the world were fixed. Today we can call this gravity if we want. A force that upholds the universe (among other scientific forces).
Yes, they spoke as they understood what they were seeing. They were in fact, wrong in their description of things that exist. Being correct and being wrong about something that exists, are two different things.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
All that said, you accuse the ancient Israelites being "wrong" due to their observation. You can accept why that is, but you don't see how science is ultimately wrong because of that very limitation? The major difference between the ancients world view and scientists acceptance of the world through methodological approach, is scientists rely 100% on limited observation. The ancients credited God, the One who truly knows the origin of everything. He is the origin.
So, basically what you're saying is that God, the thing that the ancients credited, gave them false information. Got it.
Fables are intended to communicate PRINCIPLES, something Phet has tried to focus people on in the forum. They are not meaningless and need not be real or historical (eg., Aesop's fables).
and if something is "not real" "not historical" then it does not adhere to science. a fable is not science. if someone states the bible is a fable, then it is not rational to insist that it adhere to science.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 04-28-2024 at 11:47 PM..
I don't know if I stated it here already, but the problem with science is we will never know the truth about reality through it. It is EXTREMELY limited. To ever think we will know, or hope to know the origins and workings of reality through science, is foolishness. Even when we look at the quantum world, the rules of quantum mechanics is all about probability. So scientists are looking for a way to marry quantum mechanics and general relativity, when quantum mechanics itself is not exact! And general relativity is limited, as it only goes as far as our observation. (which is limited)
Yet science works.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
Other than the limitations I mentioned, there is a more valid reason why we can never hope to know the truth of all reality through the scientific method. That is the truth of all reality, is connected to what we refer to as the spiritual world.
That is not a valid reason, that is an opinion, wishful thinking about a claim you have no evidence for.
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
I believe as scripture states, God upholds all creation by His power. So all creation is connected to the God we can't see. If you wish to break reality down, you must understand the spiritual world itself, which I imagine has many dimensions.
And how do you do that?
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Originally Posted by Heavenese
This is why we are taught if we consider ourselves to be wise in this age, let them become a fool so that they may become wise! It is by receiving God's wisdom, that we actually discover the truth of all reality. Of course after this age, we will be given the full picture of our true origins. God Himself is going to remake the universe, and we will see it first hand.
Yes, Paul did say reject ALL rational thought and rely on revelation and reinterpreting scripture. I have heard about taking a knife to a gun fight, but relying on Paul's method is like taking a bucket of custard while wearing very large trousers, shoes, and a big, red, squeaking nose to this proverbial gun fight.
people today, probably including yourself, use the phrases "sunrise" and "sunset."
the words sunrise and sunset are widely published in books and newspapers and encyclopedias. charts are published showing the geometry angle and position of the sun showing it as low in the sky or high in the sky. This information is propagated and used by sailors to navigate, and farmers and gardeners for planting.
therefore people today, yourself included believe that the sun moves and the earth does not. this is widely documented.
If you see the Bible as "stories" then you can not extrapolate from "stories" what anyone in another period of history believed. That is not rational behavior.
Of course we can. People often tell stories about what they believe.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
It's like insisting that JRR Tolkien believed there is a ring that makes the wearer invisible, and the people in his town were elves and hobbits. Nor is it rational behavior to insist stories must include science. That's like watching Star Trek and complaining because there are no devices sold on Amazon to beam you up to your star craft from other planets.
We can extrapolate from Star Trek that the people who wrote Star Trek believed stars exist, and that they had planets that go round them. Well done for refuting your own point.
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Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
And if you believe the Bible is just "stories" then "academic biblical scholarship" carries no more weight than people dressed in costumes at a Trekkie convention. And you are the person walking around the Trekkie convention insisting "this is wrong, admit it, this is not true." I don't see that as rational behavior.
Yes, YOU do not see that as rational, because YOU do not understand the difference between academic biblical scholarship and a Star Trek convention.
if it is a story, which you have said it is. and it is wrong and not true, which you have said it is. and it is not historical and not literal but is fables, which you have also said it is. Then it demonstrates a marked lack of critical thinking to insist that is what people believed. That is like insisting that JRR Tolkien believed in rings that make you invisible. And insisting that fans of George Lucas Star Wars movies believe in the Jedi Knights and travel about the Galactic Empire.
It demonstrates a marked lack of critical thinking to insist fables are never based on what people believe.
Ancient people are capable of comprehending great distances. They did travel around back then. Going from point A to point B where the distance between the two were so great that if they were at point A, they wouldn't be able to see point B. "Millions of miles" is a modern thing, so telling them that is the the sun's distance and/or telling them an entirely wrong thing would be something a stupid god would do. Instead, a smart God would tell them about the true distance of the sun in a way that they could comprehend.
That's because they're smarter than you, hence why understood that the moon is different from the sun and the earth.
To the ancients, the stars were essentially spiritual beings. Just like the earth was populated with all the creatures we see (and us), the heavens were populated with the heavenly creatures. The stars were no different than angels for the people of ancient Israel.
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Originally Posted by night912
Yes, they spoke as they understood what they were seeing. They were in fact, wrong in their description of things that exist. Being correct and being wrong about something that exists, are two different things.
Yes, they were speaking about things from their vantage point. That's not a problem. Where they can't be wrong concerns with the history of creation. For instance if there was no flood during Noah's day, then we can throw the scriptures away. The same concerning the Exodus and all other historical events written in the Bible. If there was no Adam and Eve, then in my estimation we can throw it all away.
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Originally Posted by night912
So, basically what you're saying is that God, the thing that the ancients credited, gave them false information. Got it.
I believe Big Bang origin is false. God gave us our true history in Genesis. He didn't give the people an in depth explanation of what everything was. Most people today can't comprehend the distance of the sun from the earth, and the solar system for that matter. Yet we expect the ancients to understand these things in great detail from their perspective? At one time Pluto was considered a planet by scientists, but now its considered a dwarf planet. So whatever we call what we observe, God gave us the freedom to name those things. (No different from God bringing the animals to Adam for him to name them)
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Yet science works.
That is not a valid reason, that is an opinion, wishful thinking about a claim you have no evidence for.
And how do you do that?
Well we know we live in a world with dimensions. Its not like dimensions are figments of the imagination. This is why we speculate on things like String Theory, which leads to the possibility of multiple universes. None of this can be confirmed through our limited observation.
Science goes but so far. Eventually our observation breaks down, and where it breaks down is where it doesn't work.
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Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Yes, Paul did say reject ALL rational thought and rely on revelation and reinterpreting scripture. I have heard about taking a knife to a gun fight, but relying on Paul's method is like taking a bucket of custard while wearing very large trousers, shoes, and a big, red, squeaking nose to this proverbial gun fight.
Well Paul did die for his faith. He considered himself a fool for Christ's sake. He also said concerning the faith, if Jesus didn't rise again, then they are to be the most pitied among all men. This would certainly be the case in this day and age, with science's contention with the Bible. So anyone who takes the history presented in the Bible as literal will be considered a fool from the world's perspective, but wise in God's eyes.
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And general relativity is limited, as it only goes as far as our observation. (which is limited)
It is by receiving God's wisdom, that we actually discover the truth of all reality. Of course after this age, we will be given the full picture of our true origins. God Himself is going to remake the universe, and we will see it first hand.
