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What should not be allowed, however, is for religion to enforce or ingrain their ancient supernatural ideas on our children, by mandated education, or through attendance to Sunday School. We're all entitled to our own beliefs, as long as they don't harm the intellectual freedom of others. That's hardly what the church or Christianity has historically attempted.
What's the OP's intent? To defend Christianity in toto? No-one's attacking it's social involvement or community outreach programs. What we do attack is it's insistence and broadcasting of outdated, disproved theories, it's relentless attacks on science, and it's outright dismissal of reality to the detriment of the citizenry.
BTW, on a technical point, your author's work is fatally flawed if it tries to assert any significant improvement in Christian's ethic and achievements over those of atheists. In fact, by many independent and credible studies that have been quoted in C-D in the past, Christians suffer from a higher medical mortality (folks pray instead of taking functional means to treat their diseases, or have medical treatment withheld from their luckless children because of fervent religious beliefs that God will intercede.... sigh), their divorce rate, when their marriage was supposedly blessed by God, is significantly (about 10%) higher than that of atheists, there are far more devout Christians in prison than out, the priesthood is now famously tainted by errant behavior, and Christian missionaries have ruined many a happy and functioning aboriginal culture, and have fomented so much more global hatred and war than atheists have ever acheived.
Now please do not smugly note that a few famous nasties like Stalin and Mao were atheists. That was hardly THE reason for their aberrant behavior. Many atrocities have been done in the name of God. The Inquisition and the Crusades readily come to mind. And of course, Einstein, Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Churchill and many other cultural intellectuals are notable atheists. Their personal behavior does not necessarily attend their spiritual beliefs. Hitler, after all, was a Christian!
First quoted parapgrah -- yes! Religion should not be forced in schools.
Second, umm, no. How can you lump all of Christianity into one? Some Christian denominations accept science, some do not. Saying all of Christianity fits those criteria is like describing all food at once; it doesn't work, my friend! Some are grains, some are fruits, some veggies, and some meats, some are dairy, and some are just bad for you, but none of them can be described the same as another. Aplogies if this sounds too critical, but, well, you can't be so narrow.
Third, again, you're lumping. I can't imagine a fellow Catholic at my parish trying to heal someone in medical need rather than going to a hospital. In fact, never in my life have I heard of anyone do that save for members of very fringe-y (excuse the subjectivity of that) Christian sects -- it's just not a reasonable way to describe Christianity.
Also in the third paragraph, this I must point out: "and have fomented so much more global hatred and war than atheists have ever acheived." Umm.... What? Allow me to tally common wars and such caused by Christianity. The Inquisition was responsible for between 6,000 and 40,000 deaths, from what I've seen. The Holy Wars, or Crusades, were reponsible for something like 60-150,000 deaths. Heh, now compare that to deaths by anti-theistic regimes:
What was that number? 110,000,000 deaths attributed to atheistic Communism? Yes, I didn't mention very many Christian atrocities, but come on now, I only pointed out one atheist regime. I realize that atheists are just as appalled by the actions, but you absolutely cannot blame religion for the cause of more death, war, etc. And yes, I realize you didn't want me to note that. But you cannot say religion is to blame because Christianity doesn't promote senseless death just the same as atheism, for goodness sake.
Finally, for your fourth paragraph, I just wanted to point out Einstein was not an atheist, my friend.
BTW, on a technical point, your author's work is fatally flawed if it tries to assert any significant improvement in Christian's ethic and achievements over those of atheists. In fact, by many independent and credible studies that have been quoted in C-D in the past, Christians suffer from a higher medical mortality (folks pray instead of taking functional means to treat their diseases, or have medical treatment withheld from their luckless children because of fervent religious beliefs that God will intercede.... sigh), their divorce rate, when their marriage was supposedly blessed by God, is significantly (about 10%) higher than that of atheists, there are far more devout Christians in prison than out, the priesthood is now famously tainted by errant behavior, and Christian missionaries have ruined many a happy and functioning aboriginal culture, and have fomented so much more global hatred and war than atheists have ever acheived.
The amount of Christians who prefer prayer to medicine is low. The divorce rate figure is largely due to Pentecostals and Baptists. Catholics, Lutherans, and Presbyterians generally have divorce rates similar or lower than atheists. There is an advantage to proclaiming Christianity in prison and atheism is less appealing for the lower-class uneducated people. Poorer people tend to commit more crime and tend to have bad lawyers. When you look at Christian denominations that are more associated to the upper-classes, like Episcopalians or what not, I believe they also tend to be underrepresented. Presumably atheist representation in white-collar crime is average.
Religious people do have higher rates of ethnic prejudices, going by Gallup, and may suffer from Obsessive-compulsive disorder more even when factoring out the income issues.
As for the list of names Einstein was a mediocre to poor father. It's also not clear if he was deist, pantheist, or atheist. I believe Churchill was an agnostic, not an atheist. And despite his many admirable qualities he was something of a sexist and racist. I think Sagan might have also been agnostic rather than atheist.
Most atheists are agnostics when you get right down to it. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm an agnostic-atheist. IMO, it is as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that there is. Gnostics (either theist or atheist) are the ones who worry me, because they claim to know that which cannot be known. Just my opinion.
Most atheists are agnostics when you get right down to it. The two are not mutually exclusive. I'm an agnostic-atheist. IMO, it is as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that there is. Gnostics (either theist or atheist) are the ones who worry me, because they claim to know that which cannot be known. Just my opinion.
There is more than one way to know things, catman. Empirical science is just the one that can be shared with some confidence. Intuition and personal experience are valuable . . . but not sharable with any confidence. Still . . . for the individual they DO constitute "knowing." The world is a much bigger place than you think, catman.
'I'm an agnostic-atheist. IMO, it is as impossible to prove that there is no god as it is to prove that there is....'
REPLY: The evidence of a personal theistic Creator/Designer is abundantly before all of us ; it takes a deliberate refusal to consider it/embrace it because it often gets in the way of our personal lifestyle agenda which a holy moral Creator would frown upon (moral accountabiity). Refusal of God isnt based on a lack of scientific evidence, but rather, the Will . If its only scientific evidence that would cause you to submit your life to God and enter into a personal relationship with him, then go to www.impactapologetics.com and get the featured book called : 'I Dont Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist' -- It has all the evidence anyone could require to make a rational decision for God scientifically , and the clear reasons why being an atheist requires an incredible amount of absurd faith...something which no one could ever muster up. Regards.
Since you posted the exact same thread in the atheist/agnostic forum I'll copy and paste the same response I gave in atheist/agnostic forum:
If Christianity(or religion in general) is needed to stop/lower the behaviors that you listed then more secular countries like Norway, Britain or Japan would be hell on earth full of people in despair while the U.S is a utopia of happy citizens. This is not so. God fearing America is the worst while Japan is the best. Most people in secular countries also live moral lives of contentment.
As the main character in The Man from Earth said, "So many preach the words but don't practice it." Without spoiling things too much, he was a major religious figure at the time (protagonist is immortal and has been alive for 14000 years) and he said that Jesus was basically trying to teach Buddhism in the West but got punished by the authorities and also people were too closed minded to really think things through.
And, much to my dismay, things haven't changed really in the past 2000 years. People are still too intellectually lazy to do the heavy lifting to come to the only natural conclusion there is - that God doesn't exist and is merely a fabrication of ancient mysticism wrapped with fairy tale and some moral codes thrown in the mix for good measure.
As the main character in The Man from Earth said, "So many preach the words but don't practice it." Without spoiling things too much, he was a major religious figure at the time (protagonist is immortal and has been alive for 14000 years) and he said that Jesus was basically trying to teach Buddhism in the West but got punished by the authorities and also people were too closed minded to really think things through.
And, much to my dismay, things haven't changed really in the past 2000 years. People are still too intellectually lazy to do the heavy lifting to come to the only natural conclusion there is - that God doesn't exist and is merely a fabrication of ancient mysticism wrapped with fairy tale and some moral codes thrown in the mix for good measure.
Oooooh, I'm glad you mentioned that movie... it was wonderful.
I am of the belief that religion is necessary right now...but eventually we will evolve out of a need for it. Just like getting out of an abusive relationship (i.e. you have to do what the aggressor says or you can expect eternal punishment...) the first step is the hardest.
Since you posted the exact same thread in the atheist/agnostic forum I'll copy and paste the same response I gave in atheist/agnostic forum:
If Christianity(or religion in general) is needed to stop/lower the behaviors that you listed then more secular countries like Norway, Britain or Japan would be hell on earth full of people in despair while the U.S is a utopia of happy citizens. This is not so. God fearing America is the worst while Japan is the best. Most people in secular countries also live moral lives of contentment.
Norway and Sweden are generally more suicidal than us. Traditionally the US does well in productivity and innovation while religious nations do well on suicide rates.
In terms of happiness the "World Database of Happiness" places Japan well below the US. Even in terms of "happy life years" the US exceeds Japan and Britain. While Costa Rica even exceeds Denmark.
Happiness in Nations
Maps WDH (http://worlddatabaseofhappiness.eur.nl/hap_nat/maps/RR-2dmap.html - broken link)
The "Happy Planet Index" also puts US life satisfaction above Britain, Japan, and equal to Sweden. Below Norway, but Costa Rica surpassing Norway and Ireland equals it.
Life Satisfaction | Global HPI | Explore | Happy Planet Index (http://www.happyplanetindex.org/explore/global/life-sat.html - broken link)
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And yes, I realize you didn't want me to note that. But you cannot say religion is to blame because Christianity doesn't promote senseless death just the same as atheism, for goodness sake.
