05-18-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
abqcd
Sure, in Texas. In SV, that doesn't even get you to the middle class now, which I define as the ability to buy a modest home and two reliable, safe cars plus two kids.
Middle class people can't afford this lifestyle in SV. If you're living the lifestyle described above in SV, you're upper middle class by definition.
05-18-2013, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
abqcd
I was offered a job in the SV for a base salary of about $120k and $165k in total comp. Right now, I'm making $115k in base salary living in an area with US average COL, which is about half the SV COL.
By my calculations, figuring a similar, modest house in the area, I would need to make $180k just to maintain my standard of living, figuring in housing costs and taxes alone. This is to say nothing of food, child care, etc.
This means, I would have to continually depend on my bonus and selling stock options just to pay my rent. Moreover, both of these could easily vanish if the company does poorly or a downturn hits. Plus, forget ever being able to save for the massive downpayment it would require to buy a house someday!
To add insult to injury, the company is extremely secretive, and won't even tell me what the job is, other than the general category. They won't allow me to publish at conferences, which seems like a real potential career killer in the long run, since I couldn't build a widespread reputation.
Question is: what gives? If these companies are swimming in billions in profits right now, why don't they at least pay enough to match the cost of living? And why don't they compensate you extra for not being able to build your professional reputation?
Companies aren't going to pay more than they have to. If they pay 160k all-in, and that extra 20-30k per year is enough to attract the talent that they are satisfied with, then why pay more?
Ppl come to SV because an extra 20-30k partially offsets the higher COL and taxes; the potential upside to make much more is higher than anywhere else; you get to work with the smartest ppl on the coolest technologies and projects; if you get fired or want to change jobs, there are a ton of other companies looking to hire you, so your "career security" is high; and the weather and scenery. If it really was a short-term COL/salary decision, then yes, you're mostly right that moving to SV wouldn't make a whole lot of sense
05-18-2013, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
SMUR
A base salary of $120K in the bay area definitely meets the COL needs of any family (of four) and give you small savings. Any bonus you make will go towards additional savings. Of course, this depends on your standard of living.
If you are making $115K where COL is only about a half, you are either being paid very generously, and should keep that job; or your new job is not comparable to your current one; or your skills are unique where you are, but not all that unique in the Bay area. If your skills are unique even in the Bay area and you bring excellent value, you need to negotiate better terms.
$3K-$3.5K rent should let you rent a very good apartment; which is well under the $45K bonus you expect to make each year. Now, what is this company that is swimming in billions in profits, but might not pay you a good portion of the anticipated bonus?
Have you asked the prospective employer these questions (in appropriate language, of course)? If you haven't, maybe you should, as part your negotiations.
First of all, you don't want to depend on something uncertain like stock options or a bonus just to afford the roof over your head. Second, if rent is about $2300 more per month, figuring a marginal tax rate of 40%, it would cost $46k in pretax dollars in additional rent. Third, my wife won't make nearly as much as I will. Not complaining, just stating the facts.
05-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Location: Silicon Valley
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120k base salary is far below what a senior developer should be making in SV. We're paying $100k base salary for kids graduating with a BSCS from top CS schools (Stanford, Cal, CMU, MIT, sorry if I left your school off the list).
We did our annual salary reviews at the beginning of the year and I have access to salary benchmark data from Radford. Off the top of my head we used Google, Apple, Yahoo, Oracle, Salesforce.com, Adobe, eBay, and Intuit as our benchmarks. 50th percentile for a senior developer (7+ years relevant experience) was around $172k, not including bonus, profit sharing, and stock grant. I'd expect total cash/stock compensation of around $220k minimum for someone you want to retain.
05-18-2013, 07:26 PM
Location: Mountain View, CA
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Bottom line - the job offer is a bad one for you. I wouldn't take it. If I could make close to what I make here somewhere cheaper, I'd do it.
For me, the job offer here almost doubled my salary as compared to what I was making in the DC area (which is cheaper than SV, but not cheap).
For most people the pay here is substantially higher than in other areas. Even with the upgrade, housing is so insane you often still end up downgrading in the housing category living here. But you generally end up better off financially over all.
It's been said many times - if a large home is a priority, this is a bad place to live regardless of income level. Single family home is more than upper middle class here - in my opinion it's rich. You don't see many well located SFH under $1M.
05-18-2013, 07:46 PM
Location: Silicon Valley
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Not sure where you're at, but if you don't hate it, you shouldn't move, especially if money is the driver. Between income taxes, property taxes, SDI tax (CA special), car fees and inflated prices so discounted prices can be given to a big population that isn't making that kind of money, you'll be soaked. The cumulative benefits the government employees have given themselves is over $600 Billion...that's going to come from somewhere.
Another key negative is hopefully your company is one of the big ones. In a land of Apple, Google, Oracle etc. etc. imagine the brain drain that is left for Joe's Distribution and Bob's pizzaria to fight over? Companies try and backfill by bringing in people from other parts (immigrant or otherwise) and that's the group that ends up working. This tends to upset a portion of the native population that can't get 1999 out of their heads, but the Great Recession has helped that.
That said, the place is setup to be able to live like a rock star. Nothing is extravagent here. CA dreaming is the accumulation of money and power. The math will not work looking at the salary. It's looking at control of these huge companies in the Bay Area and the connections that can be made. If you sell something for $5x price to a company making 80% margins....do they care? Did it cost you a $5M contribution to a trophy wife's not for profit to save starving Ostriches in Greenland? That's the big game.
However, as an outsider, you can come for the ride, pay some native their ridiculous rent, and do the work so another one can sit around doing nothing at your company. Your labor will be traded around by those who are connected. In time things will improve, but it takes awhile. You do get to have some awesome fun in the cities and have access to just about everything you could imagine...and that's pretty awesome. The weather is great nearly year-round and you can grow just about anything.
As for me, I came for the wrong reasons, but fell in love and am working through what I don't like. So don't let someone talk you into coming out here thinking you're getting a huge raise. Come because that's what you want to live here.
Happy Dreaming,
05-18-2013, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
abqcd
First of all, you don't want to depend on something uncertain like stock options or a bonus just to afford the roof over your head. Second, if rent is about $2300 more per month, figuring a marginal tax rate of 40%, it would cost $46k in pretax dollars in additional rent. Third, my wife won't make nearly as much as I will. Not complaining, just stating the facts.
I won't debate facts, but I will reiterate a couple of things:
* If the particular company is "swimming in billions in profits", why would it not pay you (a good portion of) the anticipated bonus? Granted, the economy/company can take a downturn. If that is your concern, perhaps you should not take the offer. Remember, the company can also let you go altogether.
* If your skills are unique in the Bay area and you bring excellent value, you need to negotiate better terms.
Based purely on what you have written, it looks like your perception of the Bay-area middle-class life and of Bay-area jobs/compensations are both a bit off reality. (Judging by other members' comments to your post, I doubt I am alone in feeling this way.)
05-18-2013, 08:48 PM
Location: San Jose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
abqcd
I was offered a job in the SV for a base salary of about $120k and $165k in total comp. Right now, I'm making $115k in base salary living in an area with US average COL, which is about half the SV COL.
The issues is that you're counting only one income, I work as a developer, and almost no-one I know would actually think to raise a family on ONE engineer income. If you are going to have a family, presumably you will have a husband or wife, and he/she would also have a career. I know if I marry my boyfriend our combined income should be enough to eventually buy a house.
05-18-2013, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
MediocreButArrogant
120k base salary is far below what a senior developer should be making in SV. We're paying $100k base salary for kids graduating with a BSCS from top CS schools (Stanford, Cal, CMU, MIT, sorry if I left your school off the list).
We did our annual salary reviews at the beginning of the year and I have access to salary benchmark data from Radford. Off the top of my head we used Google, Apple, Yahoo, Oracle, Salesforce.com, Adobe, eBay, and Intuit as our benchmarks. 50th percentile for a senior developer (7+ years relevant experience) was around $172k, not including bonus, profit sharing, and stock grant. I'd expect total cash/stock compensation of around $220k minimum for someone you want to retain.
Your benchmarks are highest paying companies. Most companies pay a bit less on base and far less on bonus and stock.
05-18-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
silverkris
I don't know how significant this is, but there are "halo" companies here that are attractive by their reputation and consequently, don't offer top salaries in their segment to their people, at least for more junior hires. Google and Apple supposedly practice that. Microsoft about 20 years ago was known to do this, too. It might be a bit different for really more experienced/outstanding star hires.
I'm not going to say publicly which company I'm speaking of, but I do believe you are correct about "halo" companies leveraging their name. However, somebody needs to break the news to them that the IPO was almost 10 years ago!
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1996 Presidential Elections Results (%) - Democratic Party (Clinton)
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Industry diversity
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Most Common Occupations - Building and grounds cleaning and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Personal care and service occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and office occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Sales and related occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Office and administrative support occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Natural resources, construction, and maintenance occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Farming, fishing, and forestry occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Construction and extraction occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Installation, maintenance, and repair occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production, transportation, and material moving occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Production occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Transportation occupations (%)
Most Common Occupations - Material moving occupations (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - Correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Federal prisons and detention centers (%)
People in Group quarters - Halfway houses (%)
People in Group quarters - Local jails and other confinement facilities (including police lockups) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military disciplinary barracks (%)
People in Group quarters - State prisons (%)
People in Group quarters - Other types of correctional institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Nursing homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards, hospices, and schools for the handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals/wards and hospices for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospices or homes for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Military hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Other hospitals or wards for chronically ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Hospitals or wards for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Mental (Psychiatric) hospitals or wards (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Schools, hospitals, or wards for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the deaf (%)
People in Group quarters - Institutions for the blind (%)
People in Group quarters - Orthopedic wards and institutions for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in general hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Wards in military hospitals for patients who have no usual home elsewhere (%)
People in Group quarters - Juvenile institutions (%)
People in Group quarters - Long-term care (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for abused, dependent, and neglected children (%)
People in Group quarters - Residential treatment centers for emotionally disturbed children (%)
People in Group quarters - Training schools for juvenile delinquents (%)
People in Group quarters - Short-term care, detention or diagnostic centers for delinquent children (%)
People in Group quarters - Type of juvenile institution unknown (%)
People in Group quarters - Noninstitutionalized population (%)
People in Group quarters - College dormitories (includes college quarters off campus) (%)
People in Group quarters - Military quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - On base (%)
People in Group quarters - Barracks, unaccompanied personnel housing (UPH), (Enlisted/Officer), ;and similar group living quarters for military personnel (%)
People in Group quarters - Transient quarters for temporary residents (%)
People in Group quarters - Military ships (%)
People in Group quarters - Group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes or halfway houses for drug/alcohol abuse (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally ill (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the mentally retarded (%)
People in Group quarters - Homes for the physically handicapped (%)
People in Group quarters - Other group homes (%)
People in Group quarters - Religious group quarters (%)
People in Group quarters - Dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Agriculture workers' dormitories on farms (%)
People in Group quarters - Job Corps and vocational training facilities (%)
People in Group quarters - Other workers' dormitories (%)
People in Group quarters - Crews of maritime vessels (%)
People in Group quarters - Other nonhousehold living situations (%)
People in Group quarters - Other noninstitutional group quarters (%)
Residents speaking English at home (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking English at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking Spanish at home - Foreign born (%)
Residents speaking other language at home (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Born in the United States (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Native, born elsewhere (%)
Residents speaking other language at home - Foreign born (%)
Class of Workers - Employee of private company (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed in own incorporated business (%)
Class of Workers - Private not-for-profit wage and salary workers (%)
Class of Workers - Local government workers (%)
Class of Workers - State government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Federal government workers (%)
Class of Workers - Self-employed workers in own not incorporated business and Unpaid family workers (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in houses and condos - No fuel used (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Utility gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Bottled, tank, or LP gas (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Electricity (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Fuel oil, kerosene, etc. (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Coal or coke (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Wood (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Solar energy (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - Other fuel (%)
House heating fuel used in apartments - No fuel used (%)
Armed forces status - In Armed Forces (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Veteran (%)
Armed forces status - Civilian - Nonveteran (%)
Fatal accidents locations in years 2005-2021
Fatal accidents locations in 2005
Fatal accidents locations in 2006
Fatal accidents locations in 2007
Fatal accidents locations in 2008
Fatal accidents locations in 2009
Fatal accidents locations in 2010
Fatal accidents locations in 2011
Fatal accidents locations in 2012
Fatal accidents locations in 2013
Fatal accidents locations in 2014
Fatal accidents locations in 2015
Fatal accidents locations in 2016
Fatal accidents locations in 2017
Fatal accidents locations in 2018
Fatal accidents locations in 2019
Fatal accidents locations in 2020
Fatal accidents locations in 2021
Alcohol use - People drinking some alcohol every month (%)
Alcohol use - People not drinking at all (%)
Alcohol use - Average days/month drinking alcohol
Alcohol use - Average drinks/week
Alcohol use - Average days/year people drink much
Audiometry - Average condition of hearing (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear a whisper from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - People that can hear normal voice from across a quiet room (%)
Audiometry - Ears ringing, roaring, buzzing (%)
Audiometry - Had a job exposure to loud noise (%)
Audiometry - Had off-work exposure to loud noise (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high blood pressure (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Checking blood pressure at home (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Frequently checking blood cholesterol (%)
Blood Pressure & Cholesterol - Has high cholesterol level (%)
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at supermarket/grocery store
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on food at other stores
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on eating out
Consumer Behavior - Money monthly spent on carryout/delivered foods
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at supermarket/grocery store (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on food at other stores (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on eating out (%)
Consumer Behavior - Income spent on carryout/delivered foods (%)
Current Health Status - General health condition (%)
Current Health Status - Blood donors (%)
Current Health Status - Has blood ever tested for HIV virus (%)
Current Health Status - Left-handed people (%)
Dermatology - People using sunscreen (%)
Diabetes - Diabetics (%)
Diabetes - Had a blood test for high blood sugar (%)
Diabetes - People taking insulin (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Diet health (%)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Milk product consumption (# of products/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals not home prepared (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Meals from fast food or pizza place (#/week)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Ready-to-eat foods (#/month)
Diet Behavior & Nutrition - Frozen meals/pizza (#/month)
Drug Use - People that ever used marijuana or hashish (%)
Drug Use - Ever used hard drugs (%)
Drug Use - Ever used any form of cocaine (%)
Drug Use - Ever used heroin (%)
Drug Use - Ever used methamphetamine (%)
Health Insurance - People covered by health insurance (%)
Kidney Conditions-Urology - Avg. # of times urinating at night
Medical Conditions - People with asthma (%)
Medical Conditions - People with anemia (%)
Medical Conditions - People with psoriasis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with overweight (%)
Medical Conditions - Elderly people having difficulties in thinking or remembering (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever received blood transfusion (%)
Medical Conditions - People having trouble seeing even with glass/contacts (%)
Medical Conditions - People with arthritis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with gout (%)
Medical Conditions - People with congestive heart failure (%)
Medical Conditions - People with coronary heart disease (%)
Medical Conditions - People with angina pectoris (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had heart attack (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had stroke (%)
Medical Conditions - People with emphysema (%)
Medical Conditions - People with thyroid problem (%)
Medical Conditions - People with chronic bronchitis (%)
Medical Conditions - People with any liver condition (%)
Medical Conditions - People who ever had cancer or malignancy (%)
Mental Health - People who have little interest in doing things (%)
Mental Health - People feeling down, depressed, or hopeless (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble sleeping or sleeping too much (%)
Mental Health - People feeling tired or having little energy (%)
Mental Health - People with poor appetite or overeating (%)
Mental Health - People feeling bad about themself (%)
Mental Health - People who have trouble concentrating on things (%)
Mental Health - People moving or speaking slowly or too fast (%)
Mental Health - People having thoughts they would be better off dead (%)
Oral Health - Average years since last visit a dentist
Oral Health - People embarrassed because of mouth (%)
Oral Health - People with gum disease (%)
Oral Health - General health of teeth and gums (%)
Oral Health - Average days a week using dental floss/device
Oral Health - Average days a week using mouthwash for dental problem
Oral Health - Average number of teeth
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to control insects (%)
Pesticide Use - Households using pesticides to kill weeds (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity work activities (%)
Physical Activity - People walking or bicycling (%)
Physical Activity - People doing vigorous-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - People doing moderate-intensity recreational activities (%)
Physical Activity - Average hours a day doing sedentary activities
Physical Activity - Average hours a day watching TV or videos
Physical Activity - Average hours a day using computer
Physical Functioning - People having limitations keeping them from working (%)
Physical Functioning - People limited in amount of work they can do (%)
Physical Functioning - People that need special equipment to walk (%)
Physical Functioning - People experiencing confusion/memory problems (%)
Physical Functioning - People requiring special healthcare equipment (%)
Prescription Medications - Average number of prescription medicines taking
Preventive Aspirin Use - Adults 40+ taking low-dose aspirin (%)
Reproductive Health - Vaginal deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Cesarean deliveries (%)
Reproductive Health - Deliveries resulted in a live birth (%)
Reproductive Health - Pregnancies resulted in a delivery (%)
Reproductive Health - Women breastfeeding newborns (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had a hysterectomy (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that had both ovaries removed (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever taken birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women taking birth control pills (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used Depo-Provera or injectables (%)
Reproductive Health - Women that have ever used female hormones (%)
Sexual Behavior - People 18+ that ever had sex (vaginal, anal, or oral) (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had anal sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Males 18+ that ever had any sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had vaginal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever performed oral sex on a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had anal sex with a man (%)
Sexual Behavior - Females 18+ that ever had any kind of sex with a woman (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first had sex
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female vaginal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a woman (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of woman performed oral sex on in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male anal sex partners in lifetime (males 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average age people first performed oral sex on a man (18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male oral sex partners in lifetime (18+)
Sexual Behavior - People using protection when performing oral sex (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of times people have vaginal or anal sex a year
Sexual Behavior - People having sex without condom (%)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of male vaginal sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Average number of female sex partners in lifetime (females 18+)
Sexual Behavior - Circumcised males 18+ (%)
Sleep Disorders - Average hours sleeping at night
Sleep Disorders - People that has trouble sleeping (%)
Smoking-Cigarette Use - People smoking cigarettes (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with smell (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ having problems with taste (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had wisdom teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had tonsils teeth removed (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a loss of consciousness because of a head injury (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had a broken nose or other serious injury to face or skull (%)
Taste & Smell - People 40+ that ever had two or more sinus infections (%)
Weight - Average height (inches)
Weight - Average weight (pounds)
Weight - Average BMI
Weight - People that are obese (%)
Weight - People that ever were obese (%)
Weight - People trying to lose weight (%)