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I hated whole class punishment when I was in school. I had almost none of it in elementary school. But in high school, mainly the first 2 years, I experienced whole class punishment a handful of times per year. It never involved cleanup work though. It was always just sitting in the classroom after school, and usually didn't last that long (though a couple of times, it did last a long time).
I had the opposite experience. We had whole class (or all boys) punishment all the time in elementary school, but never in middle or high school. It would usually consist of all of the boys (never the girls) having to stay inside during recess, or all of the boys (never the girls) having to stand against a wall during recess. It also often resulted in the entire class having to sit with our heads down (which I guess gave the teacher a break from actually teaching). Or the entire class being given additional homework as a punishment.
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I was good in school through 10th grade and then I discovered the fun of getting into a little trouble. For that reason, I didn't really mind the punishment that came my way that I knew I deserved. I chose to do things that I knew would most likely result in punishment from the school so I was ok with it. But I really hated being punished when I hadn't done anything wrong.
I think you're right in your premise that, for the most part, the good kids can't really control the bad kids, though that is not always the case. There were sometimes good kids with a strong personality who would put the bad kids in their place when their behavior threatened punishment for the whole class.
I don't get too fired about this stuff because I know that teaching and educating is difficult and there are few if any methods of engagement and discipline that universally work.
That is a very good point. Different punishment is more effective for different kids. For you, being required to do work details was clearly not an effective punishment. Ideally, schools would tailor the punishment to the individual, to focus on what is more effective.
My other pet peeve was punishment that lasted the entire year. It takes away any incentive to behave.
It's possible that different schools may have different definitions of "lunch detention". My experience was more what you described, but it doesn't mean that the poster that you responded to is wrong.
Not really, lunch detention is a pretty universally understood concept in education. What the OP is describing would be given a term like “cleaning duty” or such. I know that seems like nitpicking, but the terms wouldn’t be interchanged by an administrator when talking to a parent, because they have very different meanings, and detention during school hours it is NOT something a parent could successfully argue their child won’t do.
Not really, lunch detention is a pretty universally understood concept in education. What the OP is describing would be given a term like “cleaning duty” or such. I know that seems like nitpicking, but the terms wouldn’t be interchanged by an administrator when talking to a parent, because they have very different meanings, and detention during school hours it is NOT something a parent could successfully argue their child won’t do.
I am going to date my self but each school make up their own name and even same name might mean different thing. In the early 90's while i was in 6th grade we got new principal midyear. While detention was still being called lunch detention, it was now really lunchroom cleaning detention. After you finished eating, you were expected to take trays from kids that finished eating and wipe down any spills with wet rag. Once everyone left, kids on detention had to completely wipe down all tables(younger kids seem to be less resistant to doing that type of work compare to older ones). I never gotten the detention, so parents never got involved. My brother that was 1 year younger, no longer had same type of detention next year as it was change back to what is described in your link. Also while i was in the 7th grade,in the 1st week i was given detention and told to report to janitors at the end of the day. Not thinking anything about it, i did and they tried to hand me and a girl bucket filled with water and a rag. I refuse but she took it. After my parents were called and complain was made, they ended that type of detention for the rest of the time i was there. So yes while you might think that name is universally understood, that is not really the case.
I am going to date my self but each school make up their own name and even same name might mean different thing. In the early 90's while i was in 6th grade we got new principal midyear. While detention was still being called lunch detention, it was now really lunchroom cleaning detention. After you finished eating, you were expected to take trays from kids that finished eating and wipe down any spills with wet rag. Once everyone left, kids on detention had to completely wipe down all tables(younger kids seem to be less resistant to doing that type of work compare to older ones). I never gotten the detention, so parents never got involved. My brother that was 1 year younger, no longer had same type of detention next year as it was change back to what is described in your link. Also while i was in the 7th grade,in the 1st week i was given detention and told to report to janitors at the end of the day. Not thinking anything about it, i did and they tried to hand me and a girl bucket filled with water and a rag. I refuse but she took it. After my parents were called and complain was made, they ended that type of detention for the rest of the time i was there. So yes while you might think that name is universally understood, that is not really the case.
Dude.....
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I had the opposite experience. We had whole class (or all boys) punishment all the time in elementary school, but never in middle or high school. It would usually consist of all of the boys (never the girls) having to stay inside during recess, or all of the boys (never the girls) having to stand against a wall during recess. It also often resulted in the entire class having to sit with our heads down (which I guess gave the teacher a break from actually teaching). Or the entire class being given additional homework as a punishment.
That is a very good point. Different punishment is more effective for different kids. For you, being required to do work details was clearly not an effective punishment. Ideally, schools would tailor the punishment to the individual, to focus on what is more effective.
My other pet peeve was punishment that lasted the entire year. It takes away any incentive to behave.
I wouldn't say that work details weren't an effective punishment for me. It wasn't so much the form of the punishment but the severity that really mattered. Regular detention and work details generally fell around the same spot on the effectiveness spectrum in that they did deter me from serious infractions but I was willing to endure a light "sentence" for the fun of breaking cetrain rules. Greater severity (longer detentions, harder work details) would have been more effective, most likely.
I totally agree with you on full year punishments. There's no incentive to improve behavior if you're going to be unceasingly punished anyway.
my apologies, I forgot that I am arguing with teachers and teachers are always right.
If you'd read many of my posts in this sub-forum, you'd know that's something I've never claimed.
However, when it comes to effectively running a classroom, generally we do know more than amateurs.
A case in point. One day the PTA came and wanted to hold an after-school activity. It wasn't really something within the realm of what schools do, in part because I didn't feel it was something that teachers should be expected to do. But they persisted and offered to "chaperone" it without any help from staff. I reluctantly okayed it, emphasizing that staff would not be involved. It turned out to be a group of about 90 kids, and they had 5 PTA "chaperones". I attended for legal reasons, but sat back to hopefully not intervene. It didn't come to that, but by the end of the hour-long activity, 3 of the 5 PTA mothers were in tears, the other left and never returned to the PTA.
The bottom line is that many parents have no concept of how different it is when you're responsible on a daily basis for 125-1,000 kids, as compared to a handful children at their home.
If you'd read many of my posts in this sub-forum, you'd know that's something I've never claimed.
However, when it comes to effectively running a classroom, generally we do know more than amateurs.
A case in point. One day the PTA came and wanted to hold an after-school activity. It wasn't really something within the realm of what schools do, in part because I didn't feel it was something that teachers should be expected to do. But they persisted and offered to "chaperone" it without any help from staff. I reluctantly okayed it, emphasizing that staff would not be involved. It turned out to be a group of about 90 kids, and they had 5 PTA "chaperones". I attended for legal reasons, but sat back to hopefully not intervene. It didn't come to that, but by the end of the hour-long activity, 3 of the 5 PTA mothers were in tears, the other left and never returned to the PTA.
The bottom line is that many parents have no concept of how different it is when you're responsible on a daily basis for 125-1,000 kids, as compared to a handful children at their home.
So very, very true.
__________________
When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
If you'd read many of my posts in this sub-forum, you'd know that's something I've never claimed.
However, when it comes to effectively running a classroom, generally we do know more than amateurs.
A case in point. One day the PTA came and wanted to hold an after-school activity. It wasn't really something within the realm of what schools do, in part because I didn't feel it was something that teachers should be expected to do. But they persisted and offered to "chaperone" it without any help from staff. I reluctantly okayed it, emphasizing that staff would not be involved. It turned out to be a group of about 90 kids, and they had 5 PTA "chaperones". I attended for legal reasons, but sat back to hopefully not intervene. It didn't come to that, but by the end of the hour-long activity, 3 of the 5 PTA mothers were in tears, the other left and never returned to the PTA.
The bottom line is that many parents have no concept of how different it is when you're responsible on a daily basis for 125-1,000 kids, as compared to a handful children at their home.
Great post. Even at the elementary level, where a classroom teacher may be responsible for 28 to 32 students all day, some parents expect that the teacher can handle any situation in the same way that they handle it at home or a 1 to 1 fulltime tutor could handle it.
If you'd read many of my posts in this sub-forum, you'd know that's something I've never claimed.
However, when it comes to effectively running a classroom, generally we do know more than amateurs.
A case in point. One day the PTA came and wanted to hold an after-school activity. It wasn't really something within the realm of what schools do, in part because I didn't feel it was something that teachers should be expected to do. But they persisted and offered to "chaperone" it without any help from staff. I reluctantly okayed it, emphasizing that staff would not be involved. It turned out to be a group of about 90 kids, and they had 5 PTA "chaperones". I attended for legal reasons, but sat back to hopefully not intervene. It didn't come to that, but by the end of the hour-long activity, 3 of the 5 PTA mothers were in tears, the other left and never returned to the PTA.
The bottom line is that many parents have no concept of how different it is when you're responsible on a daily basis for 125-1,000 kids, as compared to a handful children at their home.
I agree that some people have very unrealistic expectations about what teachers and administrators should be able to accomplish, and have very little sense about what it would be like to deal with a large number of children every day. In general, I think that society has pushed too much parenting responsibility onto schools, to account for the fact that many parents are doing an inadequate job for a number of reasons. It's not an easy job and we should try to understand rather than immediately assuming that the teacher or administrator is wrong.
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