Are Elementary Classrooms Becoming Unmanageable? (principal, counselor, valid, graders)
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I am a 4th grade teacher in my 27th year of teaching. Over the years, I typically have had about 4-6 students who have been chronic behavior problems. In my California school district, I have 34 students enrolled my classroom.
Some years I get a bad mix of students who are more talkative or challenging, and veteran teachers know that classes like those come in waves. But this year, I have noticed a big change. I have 17 students (50% of my class) who are out right needy, challenging, and flat out disrespectful. I have 3 students who are emotionally disturbed and when they become angry won't come into the classroom after recess breaks. Most of my day, I am putting out fires, and I literally can't teach when students get too unruly and just won't pay attention.
At first I was thinking that maybe I received the majority of challenging students. But after talking to my grade level team, they are telling me how unmanageable their classrooms are this school year as well.
I think it's crazy for states to put that many children in a classroom. One of the only good things about public schools in Mississippi is that we cap class sizes and teachers' loads. I think they may have changed, but an elementary class is limited to 24 or 27, a middle school class is no more than 30, and a high school class in an academic subject is no more than 33. Over class load is limited to 150 per academic teacher. We have one teacher who is well over her load, but the state department will cite us for that.
I know that in the class where I have 15 students, there are no discipline problems, all the students participate, and most of them are passing. In the next class, with 30 students, over half the class is failing, and many students claim to be unable to function because of other students who misbehave. Persistent parent contacts and support from the administration are ongoing, but progress is slow. I do think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that many students tell me they did not eat breakfast. As they don't go to lunch until 1:00, 50 minutes into class, most of them have low blood sugar and can't concentrate. After lunch, we have another 50 minutes, and then they fall into a stupor or they get wound up and can't control themselves.
If I could convince them to eat breakfast and sleep at night (instead of being on social media all night), then I think performance would shoot up.
As for long-term changes, my colleagues and I have seen it too. I remember lamenting the students' inability to pay attention back in the 80's. Oh, if I had only foreseen how things would go.
Now we have teachers that don't remember when there was no internet, and people expected to wait to communicate with others. I fear that excessive engagement with media on the part of parents and children is inhibiting the children's ability to learn how to get along with others and delay gratification. Without an acceptance that most of an education won't be useful for 10-20 years, along with increased isolation coupled with rising levels of bullying, many children are growing up so fragile that they aren't developing necessary coping skills.
Just at our school, with a very small high school enrollment of about 600, we have over 200 students receiving in-house counseling services provided by an outside agency. The sad thing is that all this counseling doesn't seem to help. I have trouble imagining the next generation and what their challenges will be.
I do know that in France this year, the government has halved class size for schools in disadvantaged areas. Additionally, France funds its schools equitably, unlike in the U. S. where funding comes from the local tax base.
You would think that California would be more forward-thinking about class sizes. It's not nearly as difficult to deal with a bunch of disruptive students when there are only half of them. I have a couple of classes full of mean girls, and it is a constant struggle to try to teach them the professional behavior that will be expected of them next year in college. With 4th graders, you don't even have the immediacy of the outside world to use as an influence. Good luck!
I think it's crazy for states to put that many children in a classroom. One of the only good things about public schools in Mississippi is that we cap class sizes and teachers' loads. I think they may have changed, but an elementary class is limited to 24 or 27, a middle school class is no more than 30, and a high school class in an academic subject is no more than 33. Over class load is limited to 150 per academic teacher. We have one teacher who is well over her load, but the state department will cite us for that.
I know that in the class where I have 15 students, there are no discipline problems, all the students participate, and most of them are passing. In the next class, with 30 students, over half the class is failing, and many students claim to be unable to function because of other students who misbehave. Persistent parent contacts and support from the administration are ongoing, but progress is slow. I do think a lot of the problem comes from the fact that many students tell me they did not eat breakfast. As they don't go to lunch until 1:00, 50 minutes into class, most of them have low blood sugar and can't concentrate. After lunch, we have another 50 minutes, and then they fall into a stupor or they get wound up and can't control themselves.
If I could convince them to eat breakfast and sleep at night (instead of being on social media all night), then I think performance would shoot up.
As for long-term changes, my colleagues and I have seen it too. I remember lamenting the students' inability to pay attention back in the 80's. Oh, if I had only foreseen how things would go.
Now we have teachers that don't remember when there was no internet, and people expected to wait to communicate with others. I fear that excessive engagement with media on the part of parents and children is inhibiting the children's ability to learn how to get along with others and delay gratification. Without an acceptance that most of an education won't be useful for 10-20 years, along with increased isolation coupled with rising levels of bullying, many children are growing up so fragile that they aren't developing necessary coping skills.
Just at our school, with a very small high school enrollment of about 600, we have over 200 students receiving in-house counseling services provided by an outside agency. The sad thing is that all this counseling doesn't seem to help. I have trouble imagining the next generation and what their challenges will be.
I do know that in France this year, the government has halved class size for schools in disadvantaged areas. Additionally, France funds its schools equitably, unlike in the U. S. where funding comes from the local tax base.
You would think that California would be more forward-thinking about class sizes. It's not nearly as difficult to deal with a bunch of disruptive students when there are only half of them. I have a couple of classes full of mean girls, and it is a constant struggle to try to teach them the professional behavior that will be expected of them next year in college. With 4th graders, you don't even have the immediacy of the outside world to use as an influence. Good luck!
You make some valid points, and I appreciate them. I am thinking that in California there is a big push for charter schools after it can be proven that public schools are failing. It's just my opinion.
I think it's crazy for states to put that many children in a classroom. One of the only good things about public schools in Mississippi is that we cap class sizes and teachers' loads.
California tried to limit classrooms to 20 students for grades K-3 several years ago but it became a strain on the state budget. (They also attempted to implement it too quickly and ended up hiring many teachers who were not fully trained.)
From talking with friends and neighbors who have been long term elementary school teachers, many mention the same issues the OP has. More and more children come into kindergarten having never been told "no," have severe behavior problems or have learning disabilities. These teachers mention parents of their students who are uncooperative or in denial about their children's problems. I can only imagine how difficult it is to teach at these grade levels.
These teachers mention parents of their students who are uncooperative or in denial about their children's problems. I can only imagine how difficult it is to teach at these grade levels.
In our case, we are all very much aware of 3 of our grandchildren's behavior problems. They were adopted from foster care and have been under medical and psych care and medicated for 6 years. We don't believe they should be mainstreamed in regular classrooms, we know they are disruptive, we know their brains don't process the same as normal children. I think it's horrible that their teachers have this added challenge. My son and his wife try to volunteer as much as they can to help because they feel guilty.
I have other friends who also have children with severe behavioral problems that see counselors and have resorted reluctantly to medicate them. These are children from normal loving healthy families, mostly boys. The parents are desperate for help. My other friend is a psychologist that does a lot of good work with children and his is swamped and booked out 6-9 months.
In elementary school, the most we had in one classroom was 28 in 4th grade. I think that over the years teachers have become less and ratios have become more students per teacher, making individualized attention next to impossible, and even when it is, it tends to be a couple of students taking up 90% of the attention.
Have they possibly done any re-zoning with your district giving you more of the students of economically disadvantaged families? The time now compared to 27 years ago has drastically changed as well. The distribution of wealth has made it harder for the nuclear family to make ends meet, working many hours at low pay and less involvement in education. By 4th grade, having to see the Principal or stay in from recess meant really little to me, but it was whether or not I thought my behavior would face consequences at home would be the issue of certain behaviors in class. However, school and home discipline couldn't really solve more compulsive issues of anger and emotional distress being with autism and not diagnosed. I imagine it also has to do with the lack of ability for their needs to be met as well, and not just lack of consequences.
I imagine it also has to do with the lack of ability for their needs to be met as well, and not just lack of consequences.
Bingo. Students know that they don't face any consequences for their actions. To simply put it, schools can't suspend students anymore for defiance and talking back to teachers.
Bingo. Students know that they don't face any consequences for their actions. To simply put it, schools can't suspend students anymore for defiance and talking back to teachers.
Well since parents have stopped parenting, teachers now serve the dual role as parent too. But in your parenting role as teacher, you just can't discipline the kids because the admin ranks won't have your backs. Everyone is a winner, everyone gets a trophy, everyone gets an A+ and passed through, etc. And people wonder why educational rankings are plummeting........
I was always against the idea of homeschooling over the years, but in this day and age, I would 100% homeschool.
I find this interesting and very sad. Classroom size isn't the whole answer.
My grade-school education was in a Roman Catholic school and class sizes were closer to 50. I was in a combination first- and second-grade class. The nun would teach one side, give them worksheets, and then teach the other side. She was young and cheerful. If you finished your "seatwork" there were books in the back and you could read at your desk. I did that a lot. The other first-grade class was taught by another cheerful young nun, creative and artistic. Her class had the most fun art projects and put on plays. She could make anything out of crepe paper.
We had some kids with issues- one was from a very poor family and low IQ and teachers tended to give him stuff to color. One large family had a single mother- don't know the circumstances- who took in ironing to pay bills. (There was enough support form the state at the time that we didn't charge anyone tuition.) My third-grade teacher once told me that when she needed a kid to run an errand there were certain boys she'd ask because she knew they had a hard time sitting still for too long. One kid was diabetic- if he started looking sleepy the nun would ask for candy or fruit from someone's lunch.
But- it worked. It was orderly for the most part and I'm trying to figure out why. The nuns were not the type who rapped you on the fingers with a ruler so it wasn't the threat of being physically punished. So- why was it different?
I think there was less dysfunction at home- very few single-parent families. (I was divorced when DS was 12 but I had a very good job that paid the bills and I could afford to feed him.) As for married couples, good job opportunities were there for Dad- the local steel mill was always hiring, there were a few others, and you could support a family on retail jobs back then. So, there were fewer kids coming to school hungry. Expulsion was a threat if you didn't follow the rules although I never saw it happen. And of course the electronic distractions didn't exist. And maybe the religious teaching helped. I'm not advocating that for public schools- I believe they should be firmly secular- but it may have been a factor.
My DS, DDIL and their kids moved into a bigger house last year knowing that the school district was not so hot (so they got a good price on the house). I asked what "not-so-hot" meant- the usual mix of kids from single-parent families, most on free lunches (which my late DH once said was a politically correct measure of poverty), lots of special needs kids. My DIL is home-schooling.
Sadly, I think it's going to widen the divide between the haves and the have-nots. The "haves" will pay whatever it takes keep their kids in good school systems or private schools or will home-school. The "have-nots" will have to take the "free" public school education whether it works for them or not.
Having taught since the nineties, I have seen a shift in education.
1. Education has always been flaky in the sense that they try new things too often and throw out programs Willy nilly. They don’t commit to a program enough for meaningful change.
2. Parental support is down, and they often believe their children even if they are telling giant lies. (I once had a student say I had locked them in a janitor’s closet all day. The parent is raging at me. I ask the child when they think it happened, Oh yesterday the day I was absent? Then we had to watch hours and hours of tape. She did open the closet as she walked by and it was cracked open.) nightmare for me!!!!
3. Classes are too big even with caps. We just ask the state to make an exception. I’ve had 30 kinders with no aide.
4. No support from admin, as their hands are tied. They HAVE to keep the numbers of misbehavior low since everything is analyzed. They get reamed for in school suspensions, OSS, etc...
5. People want equity of outcome instead of equity of opportunity. That shift is the number one issue I have with education today.
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