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Since Monday, one very experienced and tough teacher in my building dealt with the following: One student punched another causing a nose bleed. The puncher called teacher names I won't type when teacher intervened, spat at teacher and other students, puncher was suspended. One girl came in late with a black eye. Admitted stepdad gave it to her, DHS called and came, girl sent home to grandma.
Another boy became very emotional and was continually crying. His mother had been released from prison last week and he and his siblings were back with mom at aunt's house. Kids admitted a year of abuse at the hands of exstepdad who they had been living with. DHS called, came, and removed the kids. Don't ask where dad was, he died in a knife fight last year. All this while teacher should have been giving various state mandated tests. And it's only fifth grade. And there are two more days in the week.
This is what teachers deal with, and is actually a fairly normal week at this particular school.
You share this in a forum and then wonder why people think teachers can't do anything else? Why is this guy still putting up with this if he has choices? When teachers complain all of the time about what they have to put up with it suggests to folks that they don't have much in the ways of alternatives. Hmmmm those who can do and those who can't have little choice and put up with! Shout out about how great the profession is and how it gives you a great foundation for retirement at 62 etc and how you are energized everyday and radiating intellectual energy and have the best job in the world. That will make people go darn thats a great job and profession.
In most areas its a complete myth that teachers get "paid so poorly". Its teachers way of trying to extract more money from the tax payers. In California the average teacher pay was $64,000/year. But that is for 8 months of work, they are getting on average $8,000 a month! If they got paid 12 months at of the year they would get paid $96,000. That is not being paid "so poorly". Most areas I know of pay their teachers the same in relation to the cost of living.
Tax payers should not be paying teachers to play in the summer sun. On a monthly basis they get paid plenty, if they want more then can work in the summer.
The primary problem with teacher pay is it that pay is not associated with labor market conditions and talent. Just how long you've been on the job. Why should a physics teacher and an English teacher get paid the same when the market for physics teachers is much smaller?
Based on what I know about California, the teachers there don't get paid enough.
How about you make an actual argument? I will answer this, but only because you'll use it as an excuse if I don't. Last time I was involved with elementary education was last year.
Thank you, how would you rank your teaching? Were you good, ok, or just getting your pay check?
I don't know why anyone continues to think that teachers get to teach what they want. In my state, we have a state mandated curriculum and teachers have to teach what is prescribed in two week chunks. T
Nobody in this thread as stated that, I stated that they have a good degree of latitude in how they teach. And they do.
When you start out your post with "the people I disagree with don't know what they are talking about"....the rest of your post can be pretty easily ignored.
No, $64,000 is not low income for California. The median income in California is around $54,000.
San Fransisco is expensive, but you can't take the most expensive area in the state and say "well teachers can't afford it so they make to little".
And yes, they are only working around 8 months a year, perhaps more like 8.5 months. They get the summer off and have a long winter break and get a number of other holidays off. Show me another job where you get that much time off! At best in private industry you'll get 1 month off a year. So the pay really does have to be put into perspective, at the very least multiple it by 125% to get an idea how it compares to a standard job in private industry.
And yes, starting pay is not $64,000 and many are making less, many are also making more.
Nationally, the average teacher salary is about the same as the median household income, that is around $50k. The individual median is around $32,000, so teachers are making significantly more than 50% of the population....yet they always say they are "paid so little". They are a bit like leeches.
After earning a MA degree, and working 16 years, I would be lying if I said the 90 grand (which included tutoring when off track, subbing, and going to countless paid staff development trainings) I earned last year was low pay. When you look at it, teachers starting salary is a livable wage for a single person who just graduated out of college, but in order to max out on the salary scale which takes 25 years to do in most districts, then the money isn't the reason anyone goes into teaching since our pay scales are not as good as other comparable licensed professions.
As far as vacation time, teachers deal with other people's children. Children don't come to our classrooms well behaved and motivated to learn. The stress of dealing with classroom discipline, compounded with the state, county, and local school district mandates allow teachers to have the down time we so desperately need in order to regroup for the new school year. Also you need to take into account that kids need a break from school as well, and parents are used to this tradition of being out around christian holidays to be with family. So in a sense teachers benefit from the holidays simply because students need breaks as well.
But many times when we are on our so called vacations as you say, teachers like me are tutoring/subbing for other teachers who need me to sub for them and or going to full week trainings in order to keep myself up to date on the latest research strategies that they want me to implement in the classroom.
Thank you, how would you rank your teaching? Were you good, ok, or just getting your pay check?
Never stated I was an elementary school teacher. "Teacher" is not the only job in education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennquaker09
Based on what I know about California, the teachers there don't get paid enough.
The median household income in the state is $54,000, but the average teacher salary is $64,000. They get tons of time off. In what way are teachers in general not paid enough in California?
Also, since the labor market for educators is in no sense a free market its rather unclear what "teacher's should be paid". That is the point of having a free-market, it will determine what particular skills, etc are worth.
As far as vacation time, teachers deal with other people's children. Children don't come to our classrooms well behaved and motivated to learn. The stress of dealing with classroom discipline, compounded with the state, county, and local school district mandates allow teachers to have the down time we so desperately need in order to regroup for the new school year.
Haha! Sorry, I can't do much but laugh about this. Yes, those poor poor teachers. Nobody in private industry has to deal with stress in their job, not at all. Clearly teachers should get the summer off while tax payers pay them to "regroup" from their so stressful job.
You've got to be joking....
Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd
But many times when we are on our so called vacations as you say, teachers like me are tutoring/subbing for other teachers who need me to sub for them and or going to full week trainings in order to keep myself up to date on the latest research strategies that they want me to implement in the classroom.
C'mon. Teachers are not required to sub during the summer and the amount of training required on an annual basis if fairly little. I already accounted for the training time and a bit of time to prep for the school year. Consider all these things and teachers are getting anywhere betwen 2.5~3 months more vacation time than people working normal jobs.
But still....the stress thing. Hahaha! I would recommend never saying that in front of a group of angry tax payers.
Antredd,
A silly quip. It is a case by case basis. Also, some who do, cannot teach anyone about what they do (since many have no clue what they are dong in the first place). But yes, some who teach can neither teach nor do.
Until we extricate the conversation from vast generalizations over the millions of teachers, we will be stuck in circular logic for perpetuity. Those on the far left will defend even the most unqualified teacher come hell or high water, while the far right will continue to condems the millions of "secular saints" who have sacrificed far greater income to give back to a society increasingly not worth giving back to. Virtually all in the middle, from moderates (i.e. non-extremists) to rationalists, are sick and tired of the debate between two equally moronic and obtuse sides and wait for the day when pragmatists with the guts to call a spade a spade will run the show.
Summers off: Hard to say. For those who are lucky to be teaching, it is probably outrageous. They should be getting extra training. For those worth their weight in gold, summers off is the least we can do. Although I never taught K-12, I did consider the summers off in university a professional and personal "must have" without which I would have bolted.
Finally, I think that I would be biased in favor of the working conditions of most teachers. Most of them deal with their fair share if spoiled brats, trouble makers, and apologist or disturbed parents. All this i addition to colleagues and bosses and the normal politics. That said, it frustrates me to no end to speak with an unqualified teacher about basic math or science or about expository or creative writing.
None of these things are any different than what many face in their line of work. However, the low degree of entry and exit and the virtual fixity of the business model means that problems persist without any resolution. Frustrating for all.
After earning a MA degree, and working 16 years, I would be lying if I said the 90 grand (which included tutoring when off track, subbing, and going to countless paid staff development trainings) I earned last year was low pay. When you look at it, teachers starting salary is a livable wage for a single person who just graduated out of college, but in order to max out on the salary scale which takes 25 years to do in most districts, then the money isn't the reason anyone goes into teaching since our pay scales are not as good as other comparable licensed professions.
As far as vacation time, teachers deal with other people's children. Children don't come to our classrooms well behaved and motivated to learn. The stress of dealing with classroom discipline, compounded with the state, county, and local school district mandates allow teachers to have the down time we so desperately need in order to regroup for the new school year. Also you need to take into account that kids need a break from school as well, and parents are used to this tradition of being out around christian holidays to be with family. So in a sense teachers benefit from the holidays simply because students need breaks as well.
But many times when we are on our so called vacations as you say, teachers like me are tutoring/subbing for other teachers who need me to sub for them and or going to full week trainings in order to keep myself up to date on the latest research strategies that they want me to implement in the classroom.
What are the comparable licensed professionals with the same educational course selection as teachers? Also teachers salaries are driven by available tax dollars (money earned by others) vs the private sector and money/wealth created by the combined efforts of a particular companies employees. Education spends government money without directly creating it. Those districts that are wealthier pay more as a good school system is a draw for well educated people. Weaker school systems ought to pay less as they aren't a draw for high income tax payers. That might help some teacher salaries if we stopped worrying about how to equitably distribute strong teachers.
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