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When high school students ask, "How will I use English Literature when I grow up? How will The Scarlet Letter or The Crucible help me in life?" What do you say?
1. So people will not perceive you as being an unlettered and undereducated ignoramus when you cannot understand all the jokes on The Simpsons.
Note: The Simpsons has made reference, direct or indirect, to the following works or authors:
* Ayn Rand
* William Golding, Lord of the Flies
* Edgar Allan Poe, "The Raven" and "The Tell-Tale Heart"
* Stephen King, The Shining
* Shirley Jackson, "The Lottery"
* Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing
* The Devil and Daniel Webster
* A Clockwork Orange
* Moby-Dick
* Animal Farm
* W.W. Jacobs, "The Monkey's Paw"
* The Odyssey (written by the OTHER Homer)
* Hamlet
2. So people will not perceive you as being an unlettered and undereducated ignoramus when you fail to catch all of the "Easter egg" allusions (and hints) on Lost.
Note: Lost has made reference, direct or indirect to AT LEAST these authors or works...and more. I've noted where I've felt the spirit move me.
* Ayn Rand (Sawyer reads The Fountainhead on the beach)
* William Golding, Lord of the Flies...of course
* A Clockwork Orange (Karl is "educated" in a manner directly comparable to Alex's re-education by the Ludovico Method)
* Animal Farm (Science teacher Leslie Arzt exclaims, "The pigs are walking!")
* W.W. Jacobs, "The Monkey's Paw"
* The Odyssey (Desmond, a sailor, crashes on an island and wants to get back to his beloved...Penelope)
* Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge
* Steinbeck, Of Mice and Men (Ben quotes a passage at length after Sawyer's sneering question, "Don't you read?")
* Carlos Castaneda, A Separate Reality
* Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
* Ambrose Bierce, "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"
* Richard Adams, Watership Down
* Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend
* Stephen King, The Stand
* Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness* Jules Verne, The Mysterious Island
* Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
3. So you will not actually be either unlettered or ignorant.
Probably the number one answer (as previously stated, repeatedly!) would be critical thinking. I don't know that it's necessary to read all "classics" to develop critical thinking, either.
Also would increase reading skills, writing skills, vocabularly...if you want to score well on the GREs or even the SATs, you need to be able to handle more challenging reading material.
Being well-rounded also counts for something...that means being at least somewhat familiar with the classics, as well as modern lit and pop lit. You never know when you might score a job or make a successful business deal or professional partnership all because you bonded with someone over a shared knowledge of something completely random.
When asked, "How is this [math] preparing me for life?" by an eighth grader, I responded, "How is playing Grand Theft Auto [his favorite pastime] preparing you for life?"
Sometimes kids asked as a serious question, and I tried to give a real answer. Sometimes kids just wanted to waste time - those, I invited to come in at lunchtime so we'd have more time to discuss it. Funny, they usually tried to back out.
Here you are making a comparison again, but to what exactly?
And yes, Harry Potter is an example of British literature hence the irony.
Those are not really children's literature.
Regardless, I never suggested that you can't analyze children's literature rather I stated that there is a distinction between children's literature and adult literature. Not sure if you have noticed, but children are not just little people. They do not comprehend the same sorts of things as adults, so naturally the literature that is targeted towards them lacks the sort of depth seen in adult literature. This does not mean Children's literature can't be great or is not worthy for adults to read. Personally, I'm rather fond of the Le Petit Prince.
The Harry Porter stories are great kids stories, but they simply don't compare to novels like The Scarlet Letter.
I don't see anything wrong with adults reading books targeted for children, what I think is inaccurate is the idea that these books are on the same intellectual level as novels written for educated adults.
Let me ask you, what was the last such novel you read?
Yes, I see my use of the term British Literature may be incorrect. I meant books like Wuthering Heights, Pride and Prejudice, and Vanity Fair. Books set to be realistic with that particular time frame (not sci-fi or fantasy written at that time). I found those types of books incredibly boring and unrelatable, so when the original question of "why do we need this in life" came up, I have a hard time answering other than saying, "you need this to pass the class and graduate".
I agree that Harry Potter isn't even close in the level of vocabulary and potential depth of something like The Scarlet Letter, but the level of analysis one does, or several people do, is limited to the intelligence and understanding of those making the analysis. You could take 2 random people, have them read The Scarlet Letter, and the extent of their analysis may be explaining why or why not someone is considered a *****. Take that same book with 2 people participating in this thread and you'll get a completely different type of discussion.
I only took issue with what I percieved as an insult to any person who may find a children's book worthy of analysis, beyond what a child or teen may be capable. Now should Harry Potter be put into an 11th or 12th grade Honors English curicculum, absolutely not. But though the series is targeted to kids, doesn't mean that there aren't any complex themes that even an above average intelligent adult can digest.
My original post in the beginning was that I got nothing (and I mean nothing but contempt) out of several books that would have been considered classics. I happened to get a lot from the Harry Potter series. Everyone's mileage may vary.
As for the last such novel I read, I'm not sure if you mean of the classics or just in general. I'm currently reading Stephen King's Under the Dome.
Just to throw you a question, have you read one of the Harry Potter books? While certainly not in the first 2 books, the later ones, in my opinion, have some complex themes.
1. So people will not perceive you as being an unlettered and undereducated ignoramus when you cannot understand all the jokes on The Simpsons.
Note: The Simpsons has made reference, direct or indirect, to the following works or authors:
* Ayn Rand
* William Golding, Lord of the Flies
* Edgar Allan Poe, "The Raven" and "The Tell-Tale Heart"
* Stephen King, The Shining
* Shirley Jackson, "The Lottery"
* Shakespeare, Much Ado About Nothing
* The Devil and Daniel Webster
* A Clockwork Orange
* Moby-Dick
* Animal Farm
* W.W. Jacobs, "The Monkey's Paw"
* The Odyssey (written by the OTHER Homer)
* Hamlet
2. So people will not perceive you as being an unlettered and undereducated ignoramus when you fail to catch all of the "Easter egg" allusions (and hints) on Lost.
Note: Lost has made reference, direct or indirect to AT LEAST these authors or works...and more. I've noted where I've felt the spirit move me.
* Ayn Rand (Sawyer reads The Fountainhead on the beach)
* William Golding, Lord of the Flies...of course
* A Clockwork Orange (Karl is "educated" in a manner directly comparable to Alex's re-education by the Ludovico Method)
* Animal Farm (Science teacher Leslie Arzt exclaims, "The pigs are walking!")
* W.W. Jacobs, "The Monkey's Paw"
* The Odyssey (Desmond, a sailor, crashes on an island and wants to get back to his beloved...Penelope)
* Flannery O'Connor, Everything that Rises Must Converge
* Steinbeck, Of Mice and Men (Ben quotes a passage at length after Sawyer's sneering question, "Don't you read?")
* Carlos Castaneda, A Separate Reality
* Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
* Ambrose Bierce, "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"
* Richard Adams, Watership Down
* Charles Dickens, Our Mutual Friend
* Stephen King, The Stand
* Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness* Jules Verne, The Mysterious Island
* Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
3. So you will not actually be either unlettered or ignorant.
Absolutely. Every experience you have puts you in a "club" of people who have had that experience. A common classical education is considered de rigueur in some circles. Expressions like de rigueur (= required) and the excellent list of classics that Charles Wallace included as allusions in popular culture are everywhere. When you don't know them, you are out of the club.
I tell my students that they may have a boss who is a Shakespeare fanatic. It can be useful to be able to respond appropriately when people make these kinds of references in business or social situations.
People who don't read, don't even know what they don't know. One such person told me that I come off as a know-it-all. Later on, I thought of a great comeback--I'd rather be a know-it-all than an ignoramus.
They'll be able to answer Jeopardy questions LOL. Actually I wondered the same thing when I was in HS. Thing is just having read them expands your mind, and makes you a better more rounded person. I know that's hard to explaine to HS kids, but really I'm glad I read them. I'm even glad I read Hamlet!!
And I wish I'd read To Kill a Mockingbird, because I took the Jeopardy online test the other night and one of the questions had to do with the nickname of one of the characters.
They'll be able to answer Jeopardy questions LOL. Actually I wondered the same thing when I was in HS. Thing is just having read them expands your mind, and makes you a better more rounded person. I know that's hard to explaine to HS kids, but really I'm glad I read them. I'm even glad I read Hamlet!!
I agree. The only classes I consider a waste were redundant ones I had to take for my Ed degree. I had to take a tech and a math class that I could have taught. Both were a waste of my time and money but nothing I ever did for the first time was. It's all part of who I am now.
That said, I did refuse to finish reading "Rabbit Run" in college. I had to transfer english classes to do so. I found the book offensive to read.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-30-2010 at 05:55 PM..
I found those types of books incredibly boring and unrelatable....
I'm still not sure what you mean by "these types". You mean books that deal with the human condition rather than fantasy? Stating the you find these books boring says a lot more about you than the books...
Quote:
Originally Posted by anadyr21
.....but the level of analysis one does, or several people do, is limited to the intelligence and understanding of those making the analysis.
The amount of analysis one wants to do is unlimited, the quality and intellectual merit of the analysis depends greatly on the work being analyzed. In the case of Harry Potter, I don't find there to be that much meat on its bones. But certainly there is some meat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anadyr21
Now should Harry Potter be put into an 11th or 12th grade Honors English curicculum, absolutely not.
The vocab in Harry Poster is well beneath that grade level, but why shouldn't Harry Potter be read in the school system at the appropriate grade (perhaps Jr. High?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anadyr21
As for the last such novel I read, I'm not sure if you mean of the classics or just in general. I'm currently reading Stephen King's Under the Dome.
I don't just mean classics, but I'm not talking about books in general. It sounds a lot like you have not picked up one of these books since High School, in which case if you try to read one again you may find you feel differently about it.
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