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What bugs me about these discussions isn't that people like cars or prefer cars--I consider myself a car guy--but that it becomes so polarized, with one side treating cars as both free (as in free lunch, for which there is no such thing) and naturally superior to everything else, and the other side raising talking points that demonize the private car and treat it as if there is no practical or pragmatic reason to own and use one.
The reality is that cars are expensive, and their total dominance vs. other modes is in large part due to the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars in subsidy they have received and the preference they have been given in laws and zoning, from the criminalization of jaywalking to massively wide streets to parking minimums which aren't based on any concrete evidence of need or value added. But that doesn't say cars are bad, only that they are imperfect tools that we have wielded imperfectly. Nuance--what is the best choice for a given place at a given time in history--is drowned out by dismissive, binary talk of "urban true believers" and its opposition.
I don't agree with either of the bold, and I don't believe I've ever said either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkeconomist
That article largely disputes the hypothesis that Millennials prefer to not drive with evidence that they do drive, but glosses over that preference and necessity are two different things. It's not as if a person could easily just up and move from Oklahoma to NYC or Tokyo or Copenhagen; the housing market simply isn't that efficient at pairing preference and supply.
I mean, saying vehicle use = preference would be to say that, because so many teens take the SATs and the ACT, teens must prefer taking tests to not taking tests.
For several years we've been hearing that Millennials are driving less, and taking public transportation by choice. Now it seems that's not true. The article, unlike some of the "fluff" stuff that gets posted here as evidence, doesn't even discuss preference. It doesn't interview Ashley and Biff in their high rise condo in some fashionable neighborhood who aren't driving and can foresee no time when they ever will, etc. It's more "just the facts", ma'am.
That article largely disputes the hypothesis that Millennials prefer to not drive with evidence that they do drive, but glosses over that preference and necessity are two different things. It's not as if a person could easily just up and move from Oklahoma to NYC or Tokyo or Copenhagen; the housing market simply isn't that efficient at pairing preference and supply.
As just said, it doesn't talk about preference nor is it dealing with any hypothesis about preference. Just about whether Millennials do drive.
As for plumbing culture, people that are fascinated by pipes and plumbing, including for their own sake, do exist; many of them become plumbers, yet they are never mentioned, let alone constantly condemned. If you don't believe drivers, and especially people who enjoy being drivers, are being constantly condemned in urban planning just look at the first few pages of this thread, or the front page of the Urban Planning board on any given day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
For several years we've been hearing that Millennials are driving less, and taking public transportation by choice. Now it seems that's not true. The article, unlike some of the "fluff" stuff that gets posted here as evidence, doesn't even discuss preference. It doesn't interview Ashley and Biff in their high rise condo in some fashionable neighborhood who aren't driving and can foresee no time when they ever will, etc. It's more "just the facts", ma'am.
Some people claim that "Millennials prefer to drive less", which cannot be determined by studying actual driving patterns; however, it has also been claimed on this board many times that "Millennials are driving less", a quite different claim, so examining that assertion is relevant to the topic. It is astonishing how people making these claims get away with conveniently switching between one claim and the other as if they are equivalent.
I suspect there might be some shift in the demographics of those not driving — not driving less concentrated among poor young people. For the metros with the biggest changes, I think it's tracking changes in residence more than anything else (young people moving to less car dependent neighborhoods).
Its no shock that they either drive or have someone else drive .Just as in cities where you see say a photo of times squrre and loaned with yellow cabs in streets. Its just that the US is much bigger than a small area.and cars sells are huge to individuals is the truth.even airlines have meant that some who were bound have had part opened up to them but huge areas do not allow that access without driving. Americans long ago quite living solely with bikes reach.
As just said, it doesn't talk about preference nor is it dealing with any hypothesis about preference. Just about whether Millennials do drive.
Actually, the first paragraph starts off with a line on perceived preferences:
Quote:
It's become an uncontested truth that young Americans dislike driving, and indeed, Millennials do seem more fond of public transportation than their elders are. But a new Census tool comparing 18-to-34 year olds now and in the past raises questions about just how much things have changed.
Then it moves swiftly in to talking about how much Millennials drive as if, as I said, preference and necessity are equivalent.
I don't agree with either of the bold, and I don't believe I've ever said either.
Sorry if I implied that you had written either. I was just using the tone of your response as a springboard to point out how polarization on the topic bothers me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
For several years we've been hearing that Millennials are driving less, and taking public transportation by choice. Now it seems that's not true. The article, unlike some of the "fluff" stuff that gets posted here as evidence, doesn't even discuss preference. It doesn't interview Ashley and Biff in their high rise condo in some fashionable neighborhood who aren't driving and can foresee no time when they ever will, etc. It's more "just the facts", ma'am.
Regarding the matter of preference, see my response to Nei.
Sorry if I implied that you had written either. I was just using the tone of your response as a springboard to point out how polarization on the topic bothers me.
Regarding the matter of preference, see my response to Nei.
Apology accepted. I don't like polarization either, but that's what you get on this board.
The article started out like that, but it didn't give any interpretation in the body. It was just facts. And the facts are that Millennials do drive, whether they particularly want to or not. It's my experience with the Ms that I know that most drive to leisure activities, too. Occasionally my DD and her DH will take the light rail into Denver, and they do live within walking distance of a grocery store/Kohl's.
Let's use this.. I live in the City proper of Chicago, however friends of mine live in the suburbs. I cannot fathom taking public transit to get to them. Yikes �� I do ride the CTA quite often, that's when I am doing City traveling only. It is nice to own a car, I drive it, but it largely sits parked on the street most of the week. So it's a 80/20 for me on transit and driving respectively. If no one I knew lived in the burbs I would gladly ditch this car!
Whatever. I love cars. I love driving (just not in Philadelphia). Some of my favorite songs are about cars. Beep Beep.
Cars are primarily a mode of transportation, and I'm not going to spend a ton of money on a fancy one, but they are pretty danged cool.
And I'd rather have a car than a gun. Cars are much more useful ... and you can kill someone with a car if you absolutely have to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDSk4zwjg5A
so is that one of your favorites . i'm not gonna spend a lot of money on a car for what. I prefer a car that puts money back in my pocket. the older diesels are the best because you can convert em to run off of veggie oil and there better for the environment and my wallet as well cause veggie oil is free
Last edited by ground_pounder; 12-20-2014 at 05:39 PM..
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Beep Beep. 
. i'm not gonna spend a lot of money on a car for what
. the older diesels are the best because you can convert em to run off of veggie oil and there better for the environment and my wallet as well cause veggie oil is free
