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I do not believe I was disrespecting people themselves. My intent was to hold accountable those who choose to counter facts with sarcasm. My observation was that this was a very lop-sided practice in this particular debate, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, you're wrong. Yes, I said upthread that I've always been snarky. I was snarky in high school. But I always use FACTS! Ask nei, I'm all the time asking for definitions, links, etc.
And I agree with nei, that there cannot be a ban on "lifestyle arguments". Where would we draw the line? Virtually everything about the urban/suburban debate is lifestyle-related. If you are saying that it's counter-productive to draw value judgments about one person's lifestyle choices over another, I might agree with you. But in general I don't believe that's happening. However, I do think that many of us would do well to stick to logical arguments, instead of presumptuous and petty jabs.
Actually, nei said not to get into lifestyle arguments, at least twice. You're new here. We've had some doozies. Forgive me, nei for bringing this up; I'm doing it for illustrative purposes. Urban and suburban people alike are tired of hearing how they're shallow, vapid, pretentious, etc. Some of those comments could fit either side, depending on the argument. People have impugned the morals of the other side, and believe me, that has been almost entirely (and I stick in "almost" just to cover myself) from the urban side to the suburban side.
Zero lot-line homes are fine, but mostly there you're talking about row-houses, which are great but shouldn't have front porches in my opinion. Personally, I would not feel comfortable enjoying a front porch on a house that is less than 20 feet from the sidewalk. There are tons of gorgeous old neighborhoods with relatively deep front yards, so I don't think that's as a big of an issue in residential areas. It's in commercial areas where I think set-backs are a problem, with the ubiquitous giant parking lot bordering the street.
I happen to agree with the gorgeous old neighborhoods, which does kind of take the wind out of the sails of those who feel having a big front yard is a modern, "suburban" thing. Parking lots are kind of ugly, but in general they are a necessity.
If the relegation of the driveway/garage to the back can reduce the width of each lot from 50 to 40 feet, it takes 100 less feet of street to accommodate 20 homes. That's more than enough concrete to pave an alley in back, which serves two rows. If this is consistently applied, the alley can be useful, not only for garages and resident parking, but also for garbage collection and utilities, keeping power lines and trash bins out of sight to the general public.
And the developer can put in more houses, and make more money. Now I asked my spouse what he thought of alleys, and he said he likes them b/c you can put your car in the back yard that way! The only place we ever lived with an alley was in Denver, and there were dumpsters blocking the access to the yard. But when he was single he rented a big old house (in Champaign, IL) where I guess some of the guys parked their cars in the yard, also worked on them in the yard. Probably illegal, but who was watching? He also said alleys increase the distance between back yard neighbors. However, I pointed out that if the developer of our neighborhood had put in alleys, he (developer) would have just cut five feet off the back of everyone's lot; the yards would be smaller. Power lines along the alleys? Never heard of it. Aren't power lines supposed to be buried? Garbage collection is ONE day a week.
This is great news! If you're in favor of the expansion of mass transit, then we have no further argument on the subject.
I don't know why you automatically assumed otherwise.
I believe this is more often true in popular "destination" cities which are characterized by tourism and a high rate of transplants. Boulder is an extremely successful city, and thus it would appear that its residents are afraid of it being, essentially, spoiled by its own success. It's a true example, but not a very representative one for the issue at hand.
I posted some links about other cities as well. I think no matter how many I posted, you'd say "that's different". eschaton posted some stuff about Pittsburgh NIMBY-ism, not an extremely successful city/tourist attraction, but nei deleted the link.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nei
Rowhouses generally have porches, or "stoops".
I have trouble seeing the problem with that, sit and see the world go by. That's where porches get used a lot and seem to work well since space is limited. It's common in NYC to sit on one's porch (where much of the housing stock is or close to zero lot line), especially years ago:
Unlike Europe, most of those homes do not have courtyards, though many have a bit of very small back space.
I don't get the benefit. Why do I want the back of my home to look out into more concrete? There's already a road in front. Seems like a waste and will make the back unappealing.
Exactly! I could go for splitting up the blocks with walking/biking paths, though.
Technically a front yard is a waste of space, the front porch isn't though. It makes more sense to build a walkable neighborhood community that has shallow front yards or buidings built to the sidewalk, much like you would find with the brownstones in Brooklyn or the Greystones in Chicago, and then have backyard that also house the garage and trash so that one can utilize the alleyways.
^^There are many of us who really don't want to live in a concrete jungle.
I am not saying it should be a concrete jungle, I am saying the idea for how to build a neighborhood, even in a suburban setting is the same.
Portland, Oregon is far from being a concrete jungle, but still applies these rules to its city which creates a city of small town with walkable communities and a collection of Main Streets.
I prefer looking out to greenery rather than a filthy alley from my back windows. I don't see the benefit of alleys, detached garages that can take up half the yard, garbage cans and the like.
I prefer looking out to greenery rather than a filthy alley from my back windows. I don't see the benefit of alleys, detached garages that can take up half the yard, garbage cans and the like.
We are talking suburban development, not rural. It would make no sense to build like a small town in a rural setting. So that might be the confusion we are having.
For suburban development, having a deep backyard when zoning lots allows one to have a good size backyard with room for a garage. Also in current suburban development, having a garage in the back is no different than having a view of a neighbor's fence when it comes to view. None of the suburban houses I grew up in did I ever think the view was spectacular beyond what my parents did with landscaping.
Technically a front yard is a waste of space, the front porch isn't though. It makes more sense to build a walkable neighborhood community that has shallow front yards or buidings built to the sidewalk, much like you would find with the brownstones in Brooklyn or the Greystones in Chicago, and then have backyard that also house the garage and trash so that one can utilize the alleyways.
How do you figure that?
I basically have my front yard set up as a porch. There's a nice slate patio, bench, table with chairs. It gets nice morning sun and is shaded the rest of the day. Growing up, we had swings and fruit trees in the front yard, played in the lawns. It's only wasted space if you don't use it, but just because you lack the imagination to see how to use something doesn't mean others do.
And view is relative. Out my back window there's an oak tree, roses, azaleas, I have some pomegranate trees planted in large barrels on the patio, blueberry bushes. It's not the view from my aunt's suburban house which is built along a hill overlooking Santa Cruz from the wrap around decks, but it sure is better than looking at some asphalt and garage doors.
I basically have my front yard set up as a porch. There's a nice slate patio, bench, table with chairs. It gets nice morning sun and is shaded the rest of the day. Growing up, we had swings and fruit trees in the front yard, played in the lawns. It's only wasted space if you don't use it, but just because you lack the imagination to see how to use something doesn't mean others do.
And view is relative. Out my back window there's an oak tree, roses, azaleas, I have some pomegranate trees planted in large barrels on the patio, blueberry bushes. It's not the view from my aunt's suburban house which is built along a hill overlooking Santa Cruz from the wrap around decks, but it sure is better than looking at some asphalt and garage doors.
Drive through most American suburbs and tell me if most people use their front yard. Most would rather spend time in their more private backyard. Also, if the garage leads to the access alley way behind the house, why would you be looking at a garage door? And how is having a garage in the back worse than having a garage dominating the front of the house?
Also, those things you can see in your back yard is called landscaping, being in a neighborhood that is built more like a small town doesn't effect that view, you can still landscape your backyard.
"New urbanism" is developer speak for slightly prettier and better designed greenfield, master planned, car dependent suburban developments. It's an aesthetic difference to charge a premium, but does little to address the stated goals. A veneer.
What I rather more prefer is appropriate infill development and upzoning of existing urban areas, as well as improved inner city transit service. Easier condo conversion and lot subdivision. Eliminate minimum setback and parking requirements. The market is absolutely demanding more urban living options -- prices are insane right now -- just let the market respond.
We are talking suburban development, not rural. It would make no sense to build like a small town in a rural setting. So that might be the confusion we are having.
For suburban development, having a deep backyard when zoning lots allows one to have a good size backyard with room for a garage. Also in current suburban development, having a garage in the back is no different than having a view of a neighbor's fence when it comes to view. None of the suburban houses I grew up in did I ever think the view was spectacular beyond what my parents did with landscaping.
I'm also talking suburban, or at least, suburban cities. Moving the garage to the back of the house would take up MORE space from the lot than having an attached garage w/driveway. Part of that is because all building codes require setbacks and clearance around a structure. Most modern codes also require some amount of driveway for the garage, in other words, it can't just front on the alley with zero lot line.
We and our backyard neighbors decided when we moved in 24 years ago (they had been there a year at that point) that we both wanted shrubbery/trees along the lot line. We subsequently put up a fence b/c we put in an above-ground pool and it was required by the city and our own common sense. Looking out my back window right now, I see our pool, our garden, some lilac bushes right at the fence, and then the neighbors' trees. That's a much more pleasant sight than a garage and garbage cans.
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