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I was referred to this forum from another as a good source of local ideas. I’m considering moving from Portland to Vancouver. Reasons are increased crime / homelessness combined with the ever growing tax burden. The tipping point making me more seriously consider moving is that Portland recently announced plans to build a city sanctioned homeless camp 5 blocks from our house.
I’m a physician (hospitalist) and my employer has positions in Washington (I’ve already picked up some shifts at the Longview hospital for extra money and could pick up more). I currently pay ~$25k in Oregon income tax so could eliminate some/all of that tax by shifting to my residence and some work to Washington.
Our kids like their current school in SE Portland (they are in 4th and 6th grade) so we’d keep them in it through 8th grade before switching. It's a private school so no problems with staying at the school. Their current school is a few minutes from I-205 so we’d be looking at neighborhoods with easy access to 205. Some of the families live in Vancouver and drive to the school already so it isn't an undoable drive.
Specific questions:
1. What neighborhoods do you recommend? Maybe $700-900k for house price (my current Portland house is worth $700-800k but likely will drop in value with everything going around Portland. Ideally would like an area with some coffee shops and restaurants in walking distance. We don’t want a McMansion; our current house is 2200 square feet. Ideal would be something newer with somewhat of a yard and nicely designed but not huge. Lower price of course would be better but primary reason for the move isn't to save on housing costs but to get a nicer environment.
2. What are the public and private high schools like? We could do private if cost under $20k, can’t afford the super expensive $40k / year schools.
3. My wife is Asian. How many Asians do you see there? She doesn’t want to be the only one.
Demographically speaking you will find the highest percentage of Asian population in East Vancouver and Camas. Well, Asian is a very broad category, but if we are taking about educated professional people then that is the case. That also tracks with wanting to be close to I-205.
So I would say limit you geographic focus to the attendance zones for Mountain View, Union, and Camas high schools. Union and Camas are very similar demographically. Mountain View is somewhat more diverse.
Here are the demographic profiles of the three areas that I mentioned
MOUNTAIN VIEW HIGH SCHOOL
UNION HIGH SCHOOL
CAMAS HIGH SCHOOL
Your one reasonable private school that isn't some tiny evangelical bible school is Seton Catholic school which is more or less a small version of Portland's Central Catholic if that makes sense. That is on the other side of Vancouver.
As for neighborhoods that have close access to I-205 you are talking about East Vancouver or West Camas. Basically any place that has relatively quick access to Highway 14 which runs along the Columbia and connects to I-205.
The two streets that connect are 164th and 192nd. 192nd is more or less the dividing line between East Vancouver and Camas. You aren't really going to find the sort of walkable neighborhood you are looking for unless you go all the way into downtown Camas and then you will find it but the houses there are older. That might be exactly what you are looking for frankly. But you will have to be patient as that is a small area and the nice houses go fast. Otherwise there are various good neighborhoods around Camas and East Vancouver but they will be more suburban feeling.
You can go to the Camas and Evergreen School District web sites to pull up the boundary maps. But essentially it is the following:
Mountain View covers the area of East Vancouver on both sides of I-205 that is south of Mill Plain. You don't want to go north of Mill Plain as that will put you into the Evergreen HS attendance zone and that is a somewhat rougher area and will be farther from I-205 anyway: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UZwcroNg0/edit
Union covers a lot of farther flung suburban area on the North East side of Vancouver (so McMansion land) but carves out a corner of area next to the Costco including the Westridge Area which is very nice and should be on your list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...T8G-Yzetg/edit
Camas covers everything to the east of both Mountain View and Union. To be close to I-205 you probably want to be in the Prune Hill area which is the dark blue on this map. You will just need to google map the distances to see that you aren't getting too far from I-205. Frankly a lot of the Prune Hill and possibly the Grass Valley area which is the purple on this map will be as close to I-205 as many parts of East Vancouver simply because of how the exits work out. Being close to an Highway 14 exist is more important that crow flies distance to I-205. In fact, being right next to the the bridge will put you further away since you will have to drive back up to Mill Plain or back to 164th to get to the first exit onto I-205
Do what we did. Come over on the weekends, drive around with google maps and Zillow and get a sense of what specific neighborhoods you like and what amenities are nearby. Check out things like the library and shops in downtown Camas and on 192nd and 164th which are the main commercial areas.
Frankly, most people of your demographic with kids in 4th and 6th grade are going to pick Camas. There is no getting around that. Not only does it have the highest rated schools but has a higher level of community engagement with the schools simply because it is more of a stand-alone community rather than giant suburb. Evergreen School District is one of the largest in the state and there just isn't the same level of community engagement with the schools. It just feels like a much more coherent community than the collection of suburbs you get in East Vancouver. That is why we moved here 7 years ago. The neighborhoods in East Vancouver are pretty similar but Camas just had a much greater community feel to it. People just feel more engaged in the community and schools. And if you decide you don't want to keep commuting to private school in Portland then Camas probably has the best middle school options. Most of the west side of Camas feeds into Skyridge Middle School. Our daughters attended there and it is a good school. No complaints.
Since you aren't in a rush I would just familiarize yourself with the geography and places that you might want to live, and then be ready to strike when something ideal comes up in an area that you like.
Two other factors to consider (that were factors for us). First of all you have already done the tax math. Our middle child is currently a sophomore at UW and we are probably in a similar income bracket as you. My wife is a family physician and I teach. I estimate that our tax savings by living in Washington covers the entire tuition and room and board for our daughter to attend UW. That's not nothing.
Second, you will find better higher education options in Washington. UW is a world class university and highly competitive (kids with perfect 4.0 GPS sometimes don't get in). So up there with Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, etc. Nothing like that at all in Oregon frankly. And then you have more diverse additional options with WSU, WWU and the UW branch campuses around the Seattle area. UO and OSU are not bad options, but neither one is UW.
You will also find the public schools to be better resourced in WA than in OR. Doesn't mean OR doesn't have good schools. But in a strictly apples to apples comparison of equivalent neighborhoods you'll probably find higher rated schools in WA. That is largely because WA does a better job of funding K-12 education than OR does.
Last edited by texasdiver; 02-15-2023 at 06:55 PM..
Following up on my own post I will add some additional commentary regarding homeless and general societal dysfunction in this region. I spent a LOT of time out exploring Camas, Vancouver and Portland and have roots going back a long ways in Portland (I graduated from Reed way back in the day in the late 80s). This is what I have come to conclude.
Walkability goes both ways. I love walkable neighborhoods as much as the next person. But until this region gets a grip on homelessness then walkability is a double-edged sword. It is more or less my unscientific observation that most homeless will not set up anywhere that is more than about a 1 mile walk from the nearest convenience store, grocery, liquor store, etc. where they can find public bathrooms, food, booze, cigarettes etc. for sale. If the nearest grocery store is too far for you to walk to, then it is going to be too far for homeless folks to walk to as well. They will find much closer places to camp.
Here in the western edge of Camas (we live near Prune Hill Elementary) we are 5 minutes drive east to Safeway and 5 minutes drive west to QFC and there is nothing closer. By google maps that is 3.0 miles to the Safeway and 2.5 miles to the QFC which is WAY too far to walk for a bottle of booze, a sandwich or can or soup, or a public bathroom. There are no businesses, restaurants, cafes closer than that. So yes, we have to hop into the car for errands although we have lots of restaurants, cafes, pubs, etc. within 5-8 min drive we do have to drive to them. But it also means that in the 7 years we have lived here I have not seen one single homeless person camping or even on the street within 2 miles of our house. Not once in 7 years.
By contrast, if you go over to East Vancouver to the intersection of I-205 and Mill Plain Boulevard where there is a big Fred Meyer, Trader Joes, Dollar Stores, 7-11, and lots of other commercial development you see the same tent cities that you see in Portland. Because they can walk over to Fred Meyer to use the bathrooms and buy food and booze. And the freeway ramps are convenient places to panhandle. I have students who work after school at that Fred Meyer and the Safeway just a bit east on Mill Plain. They tell endless stories about cleaning needles and feces out of the bathrooms and all that sort of thing you find in Portland today.
That doesn't mean Camas is crime free. If you are on Next Door you will see endless reports of car prowling at night and that sort of thing like anywhere else. But nothing of the dysfunction that you are trying to get away from.
Camas is actually very walkable if you are walking for fitness. It isn't like the Portland West Hills where there are no sidewalks. There are endless parks, greenbelts, and trails and sidewalks. All the newer subdivisions have sidewalks and trails. So I can walk out my front door with my dog and walk to perhaps half a dozen parks and playgrounds and connect to trails and sidewalks in every direction. There are endless places to walk. Just not places where you can spend your money. If you want beer or coffee or Thai food you do have to hop in the car and then it is close.
So generally speaking, if you are going to try to re-create the same sort of walkable neighborhoods that you have in SE Portland you are going to find the same dysfunction on your doorstep over here too. No way around it. If you want your kids to be able to walk to the neighborhood park or playground without encountering feces or needles then you need to be in a neighborhood where there are no convenience or grocery stores within walking distance. Sad, but true.
Now Camas does have its own separate police force and the city is MUCH more vigilant about keeping away homeless encampments and such. So if you really want to be within easy walking distance of cafes and restaurants and shopping (which also means convenience stores and groceries) then better to pick Camas than any similar part of Vancouver. But there will be more of it than in the parts of Camas that are not within walking distance of groceries and convenience stores.
Last edited by texasdiver; 02-15-2023 at 07:33 PM..
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
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Near Clark college east campus (west Camas) or in South cliffe or Dubois Park (Dr friends live there), so kids can attend Running Start (free FT college instead of HS.). If working in NW Vancouver, MT Vista (next to WSU-V) is an upscale neighborhood.
If kids are competitive swimmers, choose carefully. Oregon / Portland metro has many aquatic centers with 50m pools. There are none in Clark county. Tmk.
There are a lot of parents commuting to take their k-12 kids to Portland private schools. 3 Dr friends in Camas did that daily through grade 12. Most of my high tech engineering coworker's kids did Running Start, as did the kids in our youth group, (2 Drs, 2 Lawyers (kids, not parents)). Many Asian and Indian nationals in west Camas. I'd minimize the driving, and spend more time at home.(for kids activities and work)
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 02-15-2023 at 07:33 PM..
If you are not totally motivated by paying less Oregon State tax you might also check out the 97229 zip code along with Lake O and West Linn (great Oregon neighborhoods). There are not homeless camps in these areas and there are a lot of Asians in the burbs with all the high tech employment. Lots of engineers, etc.
I have been looking at Camas/Vancouver potentially for retirement. It seems like home prices are a lot higher across the river (as if that money you save on State tax is part of the calculation already). Maybe I'm wrong; but, it's a lot more expensive if I were to replace what I have in Oregon in size, age and condition.
There are a lot of parents commuting to take their k-12 kids to Portland private schools. 3 Dr friends in Camas did that daily through grade 12. Most of my high tech engineering coworker's kids did Running Start, as did the kids in our youth group, (2 Drs, 2 Lawyers (kids, not parents)). Many Asian and Indian nationals in west Camas. I'd minimize the driving, and spend more time at home.(for kids activities and work)
There are definitely parts of Vancouver where you may have second thoughts about enrolling your kids in local schools. However Camas is not that. The schools are high performing. I would not necessarily criticize someone who does a daily commute to private schools in east Portland. But that has to get old really really fast. My kids knew all the kids in their neighborhood because they went to school with them. And their friends were often walking distance or a very short 5 min car ride away so they could get together easily on weekends or after school. There are always my daughter's friends from the neighborhood coming and going from our basement on weekends which is their hangout. There would be none of that if we were commuting her to a private school in Portland.
Also remember that they will get increasingly engaged in after school stuff as they get older. Sports, music, etc. How much of your life do you want to spend stuck in traffic on the I-205 bridge?
If you are not totally motivated by paying less Oregon State tax you might also check out the 97229 zip code along with Lake O and West Linn (great Oregon neighborhoods). There are not homeless camps in these areas and there are a lot of Asians in the burbs with all the high tech employment. Lots of engineers, etc.
I have been looking at Camas/Vancouver potentially for retirement. It seems like home prices are a lot higher across the river (as if that money you save on State tax is part of the calculation already). Maybe I'm wrong; but, it's a lot more expensive if I were to replace what I have in Oregon in size, age and condition.
I think you are wrong and I think it is the opposite if you are truly comparing apples to apples homes and neighborhoods. Vancouver/Camas will be a bit cheaper. Plus the property taxes will be generally lower as well.
I think you are wrong and I think it is the opposite if you are truly comparing apples to apples homes and neighborhoods. Vancouver/Camas will be a bit cheaper. Plus the property taxes will be generally lower as well.
Camas is comparable to the Bethany area where I live in Oregon. While, in some instances, the property taxes are a little less I have found the actual property prices to be higher (comparing a similar age and sized home to mine). I didn't go through all your examples; but, you would have to look at lot size and very similarly aged homes (not comparing homes that are decades apart in age).
Belz Place neighborhood in Camas is what you want. Sub-2500 sq foot homes will be $800k-$900k.
The neighborhood is easily 25% Asian or one parent is Asian. Note this includes South Asia also, but there are several Americans of Chinese and Vietnamese descent there.
What is unique about the neighborhood is that it has a heated community pool that is open Memorial Day through Labor Day.
You won’t find coffee shops and restaurants within walking distance from your Camas or East Vancouver house. You’re moving to the suburbs not a Portland clone without the disgusting craphole that Portland has become.
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