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Okay.....but how exactly is this plan going to work? Is the state offering tax incentives to businesses to attract investment? Some type of financial reward to families that relocate? This article is full of feel-good platitudes but offers not one concrete example of how this program would work.
MONTPELIER, Vt. — Vermont officials are hoping a new program that would use cutting-edge, targeted marketing and a host of incentives, both economic and emotional, can attract new people to live in the Green Mountain State, helping to alleviate what is fast becoming a chronic labor shortage caused by a stagnant, aging population.
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That would be great, but there is always a catch. It's a never ending circle. There ARE people who want to move to VT, but don't get even a look because they do not yet live there. On the flipside, one cannot move if they do not have employment, because you cannot buy or rent a house without a job.
This is a band-aid approach to an open artery bleed-out. The same problem presented in Vermont in the 1930s, with the "cure" being marketing for tourism and viewing industry as an anathema. The only two major employers who were brave enough to enter the state over the years were IBM and General Electric. IBM only came because the Watsons loved to ski and had ski lodges in Stowe.
Smaller businesses have come and gone, but the revenues that come from having large industry have been largely lost, resulting in a state that never even made it to being part of the rust belt, much less have a pro-business attitude.
Making the state more attractive to employees, while the employers still want to pay s**t wages, has the same chance of being noticed as a fart in a hurricane.
In contrast, Alabama has figured out what is needed to attract industry, jobs, and workers. A mega-site of spade ready land with full interstate access, amply power infrastructure, and some MASSIVE tax concessions just landed a major automobile plant. As long as Vermont plays NIMBY and effectively discourages business it will continue to turn into a quaint park that shows some of how life was in 1900. The economic engine of the U.S. does not revolve around brew pubs and farmers markets.
What the folks in Montpelier and Burlington don't understand is that they are seemingly going out of their way to stop economic development. Near where I live it took 2+ years and much expense for an existing car dealership to get an OK to build a new building on a new site literally next to a bunch of other car dealerships. The approval process was beyond absurd. In my town a couple years ago there was a former-local person who had a small manufacturing company in Florida that wanted to bring his company to VT and locate it in a long empty metal building formerly used as a distribution warehouse. He eventually gave up trying to fight his way through the change in use and environmental review processes. The building is still there sitting empty and slowly deteriorating with the passage of time.
On this very site how many times have we seen people contemplating moving to VT express some concern about high property taxes? Yet, the State and the public at large is still not willing to talk about the elephant in the room which is a State full of half empty schools and only a handful of kids in each classroom. My town is spending about $22,000 per kid per year at our elementary school.
If VT wants businesses and people to move here, they have to at least make an attempt at being business friendly and at least make an attempt to rein in school costs so as to rein in property taxes.
I would add that VT is 1 of only 14 States with an Estate Tax. Estate value includes life insurance proceeds and is taxed at 16% after the 1st $2.75 million (only half the Federal exemption rate). This causes many affluent people to leave VT in retirement, some to just across the border in NH. Not the smartest move to chase the wealthiest residents out of the State. The folks in Montpelier are fooling themselves if they don't think the estate tax is a factor some entrepreneurs take into account when looking at locating in VT vs NH. I personally know two retiree families currently considering moving to NH so as to avoid the estate tax in VT. The really rich have ways to avoid such taxes. It is the middling rich that were upper middle class most of their working years that have more than $2.75 million but not so much that they have the tax avoidance mechanisms that the super rich have. Just bringing it up to the federal $5.5 million exemption level would stem much of the outflow.
This is a band-aid approach to an open artery bleed-out. The same problem presented in Vermont in the 1930s, with the "cure" being marketing for tourism and viewing industry as an anathema. The only two major employers who were brave enough to enter the state over the years were IBM and General Electric. IBM only came because the Watsons loved to ski and had ski lodges in Stowe.
Smaller businesses have come and gone, but the revenues that come from having large industry have been largely lost, resulting in a state that never even made it to being part of the rust belt, much less have a pro-business attitude.
Making the state more attractive to employees, while the employers still want to pay s**t wages, has the same chance of being noticed as a fart in a hurricane.
In contrast, Alabama has figured out what is needed to attract industry, jobs, and workers. A mega-site of spade ready land with full interstate access, amply power infrastructure, and some MASSIVE tax concessions just landed a major automobile plant. As long as Vermont plays NIMBY and effectively discourages business it will continue to turn into a quaint park that shows some of how life was in 1900. The economic engine of the U.S. does not revolve around brew pubs and farmers markets.
Vermont and Alabama are two of the most opposite states in the country, just throwing that out there.
I could see myself living in southern Vermont easily. One of my kids attended college there and recently graduated. He had an internship during college, which lead to a job in his field. Since he is involved in visual arts, Vermont has many opportunities for him. Actually, almost half of his graduating class elected to stay.
I know that Huntsville is a hub for STEM oriented industries, (aerospace, I believe) and that the area has had an increased in population in recent years. Tourism is also popular in Alabama, and the mild weather and gulf beaches attract many people. (but I would not say it's a "tourist dependent state", as Vermont is.
In fact, we were thinking of visiting this winter, as an alternative to Florida, because we've never been there and parts of the gulf coast look very appealing.
Would you agree that Alabama and Vermont, broadly speaking, have little in common?
People drawn to live permanently in Alabama, are probably, on average VERY different from those drawn to living in Alabama are very different from those attracted to Vermont.
What Vermont does have going for it is a high minimum wage, - which is supported by most of the residents. Rent and real estate, unlike much of the North East, is NOT outrageously expensive.
It has natural beauty, summers are not oppressively hot, Fall is beautiful, as is Spring.
Vermont's charm and quaint beauty attract many tourists, and some choose to make it a second home.
The Winters are, as I see it, a double edged sword - some people love the snow, and others do not. If cold weather, obviously Vermont will never be an attractive place to live.
However, since my son lives there, I can say that the weather in Southern Vermont is not much, if any, colder than the weather in most of the Northern US. Vermont has a "cold" reputation, but much of that is connected to it's reputation as a big ski resort state. I think the coldness is over stated. I live in Ohio, not far from the PA border - but not in the snow belt, and frequently the weather is colder here, than in Vermont.
Vermont does have a lot going for it - history, beauty, a Norman Rockwell like charm, mountains, four seasons, access to Boston, and Canada, proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, several well regarded colleges and universities, and universities. It is also open to new comers.
Unlike Alabama, politics is not monolithic. Yes, VT leans left, however moderates and libertarians as well as some conservatives coexist happily there.
Both tree hugger hippie types and hunters call Vermont home. Hunting is popular in Vermont, along with other out door activities.
Also, it is not in the Bible Belt.
What I am trying to say, is what works and attracts people to Alabama is probably very different than what attracts people to Vermont.
What solutions do you see that would increase Vermont's population?
I for one do not want to see Vermont's population increased. My barber, from New Jersey, used to say, "Vermont and New Jersey are very much alike. They have about the same size; they both have mountains, lakes and lots of forest. They're both within reasonable distance of major cities. New Jersey just has nine million more people, that's all."
It would be better if we make it hard for people to buy homes here-- rather than have pond scum like Jeffery Skilling (how much money did you lose in his Enron?) build or buy McMansions, we should scale the property transfer tax, property taxes and McMansion construction costs according to income-- and make them so painful that their colleagues in the 1% bubble whisper to one another, "He can afford a place in Vermont?"
The middle class who choose to return and/or retire to Vermont would not be affected by this, as their income levels would allow them access at market prices. However, if theirs are second homes, they should not be given a property tax break. As many of them are elderly, they will continue to enlarge the market for elderly-related services, which can be met by existing or new businesses.
At the lower end of the income scale, we should have affordable homes and mortgages for the 90% of residents who service the 5% and the non-resident population.
Vermont and Alabama are two of the most opposite states in the country, just throwing that out there.
I could see myself living in southern Vermont easily. One of my kids attended college there and recently graduated. He had an internship during college, which lead to a job in his field. Since he is involved in visual arts, Vermont has many opportunities for him. Actually, almost half of his graduating class elected to stay.
I know that Huntsville is a hub for STEM oriented industries, (aerospace, I believe) and that the area has had an increased in population in recent years. Tourism is also popular in Alabama, and the mild weather and gulf beaches attract many people. (but I would not say it's a "tourist dependent state", as Vermont is.
In fact, we were thinking of visiting this winter, as an alternative to Florida, because we've never been there and parts of the gulf coast look very appealing.
Would you agree that Alabama and Vermont, broadly speaking, have little in common?
People drawn to live permanently in Alabama, are probably, on average VERY different from those drawn to living in Alabama are very different from those attracted to Vermont.
What Vermont does have going for it is a high minimum wage, - which is supported by most of the residents. Rent and real estate, unlike much of the North East, is NOT outrageously expensive.
It has natural beauty, summers are not oppressively hot, Fall is beautiful, as is Spring.
Vermont's charm and quaint beauty attract many tourists, and some choose to make it a second home.
The Winters are, as I see it, a double edged sword - some people love the snow, and others do not. If cold weather, obviously Vermont will never be an attractive place to live.
However, since my son lives there, I can say that the weather in Southern Vermont is not much, if any, colder than the weather in most of the Northern US. Vermont has a "cold" reputation, but much of that is connected to it's reputation as a big ski resort state. I think the coldness is over stated. I live in Ohio, not far from the PA border - but not in the snow belt, and frequently the weather is colder here, than in Vermont.
Vermont does have a lot going for it - history, beauty, a Norman Rockwell like charm, mountains, four seasons, access to Boston, and Canada, proximity to the Atlantic Ocean, several well regarded colleges and universities, and universities. It is also open to new comers.
Unlike Alabama, politics is not monolithic. Yes, VT leans left, however moderates and libertarians as well as some conservatives coexist happily there.
Both tree hugger hippie types and hunters call Vermont home. Hunting is popular in Vermont, along with other out door activities.
Also, it is not in the Bible Belt.
What I am trying to say, is what works and attracts people to Alabama is probably very different than what attracts people to Vermont.
What solutions do you see that would increase Vermont's population?
I guess my first response is that an increase of the population of the state is not the true goal being sought by the legislature or gov. The REAL goal is to bring in more tax revenue so that favored programs, favored businesses, favored individuals can all benefit. If that could be done by reducing the population, then you would be reading about the problem of too many people in the state.
Once you dispense with the disingenuous sources and solutions to a "problem" you may develop a different attitude towards actions taken. From an economic standpoint, the primary driver of the intrinsic Vermont economy has been resource extraction. It had a major lumber industry, a major granite industry, a major marble industry, a major maple sugar industry, a major furniture industry, a major milk products industry, at one time industries around other materials such as copper and talc and asbestos.
Resource extraction takes far fewer workers in the 21st century than in the 19th century. Agriculture takes far fewer workers to work the same amount of land. Bringing in more workers to supposedly support those industries makes no economic sense.
Vermont subsists on tourism and a particular image. Anything that damages that image damages the tourism. Make it easy for low income workers or families? Nope. The costs of them outweigh the economic benefits. Be reasonably kind and supportive to the homeless? Not going to fly, except within certain small groups.
There are plenty of other economic factors that make Vermont an also-ran, or more accurately also-limped economy. Heating costs, snow removal, frost damage, marginal access to prime transportation routes, geographic barriers, all serve to undermine any economic growth.
Oddly, North Alabama has a lot more in common with Vermont as it existed prior to the 1960s than you might think. Vermont politics used to be monolithic. Religion was more prevalent, agriculture was still operating as a major factor in the economy. The Vermont I grew up in no longer exists in Vermont. Much of it does in north Alabama.
You mention low real estate prices. When you do so, you unintentionally lie. Read some of Peter Miller's problems of owning his home in Colbyville and not being able to keep up with the taxes, forcing him to turn it into a bed and breakfast and sell off his photographic equipment just to remain in his own home. Real estate could sell for a dollar an acre, but if the taxes are high, it is still not cheap.
So where are some of the differences between Vermont and Alabama? I do not have to pay any property taxes or school assessments. My property, which is a lot more acreage than Peter has, has no ongoing costs draining my resources. Like in the Vermont of old, I can build what I want, where I want. At retirement age, am I going to purchase property in Vermont? H*** NO!
Hunters - there are plenty of hunters in Alabama, but the rights of the property owners make those hunters have to pay for access to hunting land. Some hunters pay as much as $6,000 per year to hunt, with that money going into the economy. The bass fishing in Alabama is legendary. I have photographs taken in the fall where you would be hard pressed to determine whether the shot was in Vermont or Alabama. There are four seasons in north Alabama, just winter is shorter, warmer, and a lot less snowy. Where Vermont recently got down into the -30 territory, we got down to the single digits.
Once you go further south to Birmingham and lower, there is a significant change in culture and climate, and some of the differences you state do exist. There are counties where the average income is less than $1,000 per month, and industry avoids them like the plague.
The bottom line difference is that Vermont, for all its "green" initiative, is on a non-sustainable path economically, where Alabama is looking forward to a better future. When the Williston Industrial Park copped out on being aimed at industry and re-oriented towards being a shopping center, it was a sign of the carving away of any hope for manufacturing industry in the state. Vermont has no one to blame for the exacerbation of its natural problems than the people of the state and the representatives they have elected.
VT in 2018 has virtually nothing in common with AL culturally. Whether it did many years ago doesn't matter any more. Ours in VT is a live and let live culture that pretty much accepts all lifestyles and types of people. The cultural influence of fundamentalist religion in AL (and the rest of the bible belt) is not especially welcoming to people that are different than them. One of my brothers married a woman from Northern AL and her family wouldn't even come meet us the day before the wedding on account we were Northern Catholics. One of the bride's great aunts told us that was why. Here in VT nobody would even ask, let alone care, what your religion was or if you even had a religion. Gays getting married is a total non-issue here. Not so much in AL. Our Town Meeting form of govt. and the approach to governance that flows from Town Meeting would seem foreign to folks just about anywhere outside of New England, yet it is a deeply ingrained part of our culture. My wife drives down to Mobile every year for a major event, and has been told to not venture off the interstate into the small towns with her VT plates because she could become a target for some small town revenue-generating policing. She'd have no way of knowing where she could safely venture and where she couldn't.
FWIW, I own land in a town with no zoning in VT and have built all sorts of structures as needed without anyone's permission, as I saw fit to build them. You need a state permit for a septic system but that's it. I want to see that permit system revised to be more affordable and practical but to put things in perspective, I know of someone who wanted to build a log cabin in Michigan's upper peninsula. With his own logs. Nothing that's a big deal in Vermont but he wasn't allowed to do so. His own logs are not stamped by a professional lumber grader. I don't like the taxes in VT but I don't like the lack of good schools in much of the south either. And for someone to have to pay $6,000 to go deer hunting is absurd, that defeats half the reason to go hunting in the first place. I don't like the hunting lease approach some states have. It grew out of the laws in England that limited hunting to big landowners and the nobility. The southern aristocracy favored that approach and the south has used it since. the first settlers in New England adopted an open lands approach to hunting, fishing, and general access to not be that way.
VT in 2018 has virtually nothing in common with AL culturally. Whether it did many years ago doesn't matter any more. Ours in VT is a live and let live culture that pretty much accepts all lifestyles and types of people. The cultural influence of fundamentalist religion in AL (and the rest of the bible belt) is not especially welcoming to people that are different than them. One of my brothers married a woman from Northern AL and her family wouldn't even come meet us the day before the wedding on account we were Northern Catholics. One of the bride's great aunts told us that was why. Here in VT nobody would even ask, let alone care, what your religion was or if you even had a religion. Gays getting married is a total non-issue here. Not so much in AL. Our Town Meeting form of govt. and the approach to governance that flows from Town Meeting would seem foreign to folks just about anywhere outside of New England, yet it is a deeply ingrained part of our culture. My wife drives down to Mobile every year for a major event, and has been told to not venture off the interstate into the small towns with her VT plates because she could become a target for some small town revenue-generating policing. She'd have no way of knowing where she could safely venture and where she couldn't.
I personally could never live there.
I'm happy to see that the reputation of Alabama promoted by the press is still acting as a gatekeeper. I am less impressed by comments like " My wife drives down to Mobile every year for a major event, and has been told to not venture off the interstate into the small towns with her VT plates because she could become a target for some small town revenue-generating policing. " especially since whoever made such a statement clearly mixed up Alabama and Florida, where certain towns are known for such. There are issues in Alabama with the (cough- Republican) idea of privatizing parole companies and other aspects of the legal system, but even back in the 1980s I used my Vermont plates in Alabama without fear. How are Alabama plates seen in Vermont these days? When I was up in 2004 it wasn't "inclusive."
The cultural influence of fundamentalist religion is an effect in Alabama, as was the cultural push of mainstream religion in Vermont when I grew up, where the remnants of calling Catholics "papist" was very much still in effect. However... in today's Alabama, Roy Moore was NOT elected, a democrat was. However... I have a church in my front yard, and although the members don't go out of their way for me, it is very much a live and let live situation, with my watching out for their property and them mine.
A gay couple in Alabama I know had no problem in Alabama, but did have an issue when one of their parents died in Tennessee. Multi-racial couples exist here even in areas where that would have been an issue in the past.
I don't defend Alabama. It has problems. I don't defend Vermont. It too has problems. What I do try to do is give a fair examination of what people can expect - as someone who has lived MANY years in both states.
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