The Next Atlanta (Birmingham, Jackson, Avon: loft, credit, private school)

[sleepless in Bham]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

Because people want to recreate the southern suburbs on the northern side and continue to empty the city. Since I like to live and work in the same town rather than waste my life commuting, sounds pretty awesome to me.

But what if you have a family with school age kids?. Unless you wanna spend alot of money on private schools what choices do you have in education?.

Do you want to pay more to flush the toilet than to get a glass of drinking water?.

What if you city leader spends more time worrying about questionable projects rather than relevant ones like public transportation?.

This is what happens when leadership in a city that for years ignores the simple issues, but rather waste time focusing on projects that may or may not happen (like the BJCC expansion that should of been completed 5 yrs ago..lol).

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by sleepless in Bham

Like it or not the burbs in the Western and Northern part of the county want to have the opportunity to have successful growth like Hoover for example.

Do they? Sure, the short-sighted leaders do. But do the residents? I'm not sure they do. Otherwise, they would have moved to Hoover instead of where they live now. Even if they do, I'm telling you what I like, and want, not what they want. This is federal and state funding this, not city, so my opinion matters just as much. I'm not telling them they can't, just that I don't think its the optimal use of this pot of money.
By your economic model, population growth of any kind is all that that matters. We should just put fertility drugs in the water and then we'd be the most successful city on the continent. Growth for its own sake is called cancer. They key to leadership is deciding what KIND of growth we want. Given I like to live in an active urban environment where one can "work, play, live" in the same place, without driving, but with a very close connection to rural areas, your model of growth is the exact opposite of what I'd like.
I also stand by my case that subsidizing new large roads like that is a detriment to the long-term plan of Birmingham city and to some extent even the central city. We have adequate highways. This is not what we should be "investing" in. building more roads, leads to higher maintenance costs and further subsidizes the emptying of the city. Furthermore, most people int hose areas probably live there because they like the lifestyle afforded to them now, not after a big road and abundant overdevelopment happens.
You seem to be stuck on infrastructure meaning roads. If we stick to roads, then Birmingham does have them, but they are in need of repair. But even more importantly, infrastructure needs more than roads. You complain that we shouldn't look outside roads because there is no public support, but then try to drum up public support for mindless growth. succesful cities are created these days by having good human capital, and sprawl is great in the short term, but eventually drives up cost and decreases the quality of life for all in a number of ways. I take the viewpoint of this article, which you can find some similarities in history, but the road not taken by Birmingham. Of course its a coastal city with a different population, but I think the lessons stand to some extent. And one of Birmingham's primary advantages could be the production and retention of knowledge capital.:
Edward L. Glaeser: How Seattle Transformed Itself - NYTimes.com "Sun Belt sprawl isn’t the only model of modern metropolitan success. Skilled, tall cities like Seattle provide an alternative model of urban growth that emphasizes the creation of knowledge."

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by sleepless in Bham

But what if you have a family with school age kids?. Unless you wanna spend alot of money on private schools what choices do you have in education?.

But its exactly the growth model you're proposing that further exacerbates this problem, in the long-run.
There is affordable housing in decent school districts now. It may not come in a gated community, or with a tract of land, but it exists.
I don't think Atlanta has a better quality of life than here, so I just don't want that to be the end goal of Birmingham.

[Tourian]

So I guess the next step is to detonate 459.

That's the best way to save Birmingham.

Obviously the people who enjoy the life they have in the southern burbs should be able to tell all the northerners they don't need it. Because obviously another Galleria and another Hoover and endless strip malls along 31 north would spring up overnight if this road were to be completed. Also, trucks will all ways need to go downtown, even in a distribution center. - nothing's ever built towards the east or the west and nothing will ever pass through town on the way to Nashville, Atlanta or Memphis.

[muxBuppie]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

But its exactly the growth model you're proposing that further exacerbates this problem, in the long-run.
There is affordable housing in decent school districts now. It may not come in a gated community, or with a tract of land, but it exists.
I don't think Atlanta has a better quality of life than here, so I just don't want that to be the end goal of Birmingham.

There are many areas in and around Atlanta that meet the walkable lifestyle you want. It's not all suburb like haters on City-Data would have you belive and only getting denser with more transit and new urbanism projects like the beltline.

[vezz77]

I agree with Bluebeard here. I don't think anyone wants us to end up like Atlanta. Having said that, Birmingham has a lot of room for growth, but we need to make sure it is smart growth and not sprawl.

I also think that the depopulation of Birmingham led to the poor status of its public schools. Upper and middle class families left, which decreased the tax base and left a school system that is generally made up of underprivileged kids without access to the type of early childhood education that makes for success through all future grade levels. The problem for Birmingham is that this depopulation spiraled out of control. As upper and middle class people moved out of the city, it inspired more people with school-aged kids to leave. Now, people use the poor schools as an excuse to continue that depopulation, not realizing that the problem was created when people like them chose to give up on Birmingham. Now they all sit on the other side of the mountain and throw stones at Birmingham, but in reality they created this problem.

Unfortunately there is no easy trick that can fix this problem. Birmingham will have attract new blood to the city, in the form of people that aren't afraid to fight for a new future for the city. This may mean several years of "roughing it" so to speak with schools that don't quite measure up on year end tests, but if enough people make Birmingham their home, the school system can be saved. This needs to start in District 3 (which includes much of Southside, Highland Park, and Forest Park). In this district alone there are 1800 school age children that do not attend public schools in Birmingham. I know that each of the families that made the decision to send their kids to private school did so because of the poor performance of the Birmingham school system. Yet, just imagine what would happen to the public schools that these children would attend if they actually went there. Schools like Avondale Elementary could be filled with these children of professors, architects, bankers, and businessmen. The test scores would improve instantly, which create the reverse spiral - to draw more people to the city, which will further improve performance.

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Tourian

So I guess the next step is to detonate 459.

Yes, that's what I was definitely saying. Just like if you like Obama you're a socialist and a Nazi and if you hate him you're in the KKK and a Nazi. And if you don't want 100 neighborhood leaders to go to Alaska you must want apartheid.

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by vezz77

I agree with Bluebeard here. I don't think anyone wants us to end up like Atlanta. Having said that, Birmingham has a lot of room for growth, but we need to make sure it is smart growth and not sprawl.

Yes, this comment states what I believe.

[vezz77]

Originally Posted by bluebeard

Yes, this comment states what I believe.

I hope that wasn't sarcasm. I was not trying to misrepresent your views.

[muxBuppie]

I love how this has turned into a ATL bash thread. You guys should check this thread.

https://www.city-data.com/forum/atlan...irmingham.html