Black people in Birmingham (Montgomery, Hoover: transplants, movers, credit)

[aturner339]

"Self segregation" is merely a by product of societally imposed segregation. That's the nature of a caste system. The "lower" caste doesn't invent it but they surely abide by it.

The idea that blacks in Birmingham separate themselves to a degree that in unusual in South is simply false.

My apologies if that was not your implication but I wanted to be clear about the cause of the issue here.

[aturner339]

A caste system does not have to be legally imposed in order to be binding. The idea that our racial system is on any level based on free will is absurd.

Again anyone who is more interested in understanding the truth than provoking a reaction already knows that.

[harry chickpea]

Originally Posted by The Hham-stah

For years after desegregation, Blacks in Bham tended to "self-segregate" and maintain a mentality of self-segregation to this day which pleases and plays into the hands of pseudo-progressives who tend to say "see, the blacks like to stick with themselves, so us whites do the same thing and it works for everyone" - while the whites know damn well black self-segregation is just fine and dandy to the closet racist, many of whom are on this board on the internet, but they don't want to be caught being perceived as "unfair" in the Nuevo Nuevo Birmingham, don't you see ? Their racism is cleverly cloaked in "progressive language" and wrapping. It means nothing. Posters like this are easily made transparent and are betrayed by their own, eager mouths and hands.


Bham Blacks are aptly described by Bhammaster - where they go, how they do it, and when in Bham. It's factual.


Bham Blacks are truly primitive in their own choices of social behavior, when compared to other black communities in places such as Charlotte, Raleigh, Atlanta, Jacksonville, Tampa, Dallas, Houston, and Los Angeles. So is it different with WHITE folks in Bham.


Bham in toto is primitive by comparison. Go live somewhere else for years and you will witness for yourselves.


Bham has not matured- not by a longshot. Bham's churches are still mostly segregated by race. Now that's pretty stupid in my book...but it too plays into the hands of racists of all stripes. That's just another reason by Bham is not going anywhere in a hurry - maybe in the next 50 years.

Buppie, you would do a lot better if you didn't lead with your chin. Your attempts to antagonize override what you are debating as fact, to your own detriment. If you wanted to get into a mud-slinging match, you would lose against me (I've had decades of practice), but I don't think that is your aim.

If you re-read my post, you will note that I stated a few facts and then stated that white and black cultures were different in the Birmingham area. I can understand how someone might take issue and call them "castes." That appellation works in some ways, but it is different at the same time. If you can't see the cultural differences, you are blind.

As a reminder of my background, I have also managed or been district manager to theatres in Atlanta, Charlotte, the panhandle of Florida, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boca, as well as Burlington Vermont and Rogersville in Arkansas. To say I am "easily startled" by moviegoing habits gives me a chuckle.

How are the cultures different? At one time I attempted to re-open the Lincoln theatre in Bessemer. When the feature started, about 70% of the audience were paying no attention to it and chatting up a storm. The 30% that wanted to see the film were upset. I had to make a choice, and I probably made the wrong one by thinking the Lincoln was a movie theatre first. I stopped the feature and let the audience know that I would wait until they were ready to watch. You'll catch my drift when I say that when they looked up they looked like they had seen a ghost in the projection booth.

That way of experiencing film IS a cultural difference and not a caste issue. It made no difference to me one way or the other as long as the audience was safe and the place wasn't torn up. Seeing a ghost did make a difference to them. I guess I could call it "black bigotry" but I don't have the energy for that crap.

Unity church (Southside area) was comfortably integrated by the 1980s, and I strongly suspect the UU church was as well. There WERE opportunities for cultural shifts, but few takers. Again, I simply state facts.

Causal factors "Bham's segregation is due to economic factors, education, and old fashioned white bigotry."
Of those three, I would put education first. The bigotry of the older generation still existed in much of the area, but there were inroads that had been made even there. You almost have to break out the various areas of the greater B'ham area and treat them individually. If you lump the city together as a whole, you can take any side of the debate and claim to "win." Example: we all knew the reputation of Pinson being redneck white, but a few miles down the road Cinema City in Roebuck had comfortably mixed audiences.

Has B'ham lagged behind in integration? Yes and no. I can think of other areas further behind. Inverness in south Florida is notably self-segregated. Pop out of a random subway stop in the Bronx or Bed-Sty and you may find a different world.

Education in the South used to be abysmal bordering on criminal, with only the small percentage of the upper crust standing a chance at a decent education. Flatly said, much of the imperative of those in power was to NOT educate the multitudes - black OR white. The south didn't need cotton pickers who were educated enough to leave for better pickings - and I know a BUNCH of people who were white and picked cotton as kids.

I'm not sure I would hold Atlanta or Charlotte up as shining examples of progressive color-blindness, and Jacksonville is a PIT in comparison to all of the above. The entire country still needs more time and a de-focusing of sports and the military and music as being the way "out" of a self-identity that can be self-limiting.

[aturner339]

As a black person raised in the Birmingham whose social interactions vary from an nearly entirely black early childhood to nearly entirely white late childhood and back to the nearly entirely black college and then back... (I could go on)

I can tell you conclusively that the cultural differences between black an white Americans are less than miniscule. In any part of the world it would be a joke that we consider each other any different. You see it more clearly when you travel internationally. All of a sudden everyone is just an "American"

It's true that America takes pride in not having a caste system but the fact is we've always had one. It's not as bad as it was in the previous century but it's still quite remarkable (very similar to India in that sense)

[HipLib]

I'm a white male, part-time cab driver in Birmingham. Here are some of my observations on this subject: The Elephant In The Backseat | birmingcabbie

[harry chickpea]

HipLib, read your blog. Understood every word of it. VERY well related, and I don't give out that recognition easily.

[HipLib]

Thank you!

[SouthernBoy205]

I see blacks EVERYWHERE in Birmingham!

[jero23]

Originally Posted by Tourian

They put the Crossplex in Five Points West.

They took the Barons away from the suburb of Hoover and put them downtown in a new stadium.

They built RR park downtown and the "experts" said no sane person would take their family and go because of crime. They were wrong about that and the Barons. The Barons set attendance records and both parks have spawned major developments around them.

They are working to revitalize the Avondale and Woodlawn neighborhoods.

They = the majority black government that runs Birmingham. Five Points West, Avondale and Woodlawn are quite black. However it is quite okay for white people and any other color of people to come enjoy thosr facilities and live in those neighborhoods too.

Actually, "they" in but especially those embolden areas aren't all black. The main leaders whom are push the revitalization of those aforementioned neighborhoods are a coalition of most white urban pioneers and a handful of longtime black residents. I worked in a variety of governmental entities when I lived in Birmingham and they aren't all black at all. Most of the employments that hold that type of power in the City of Birmingham departments involved in revitalization like PEP (Planning, Engineering, and Permits) and Community Development are headed by white guys. Additionally, most of the other non-profit entities involved in those related areas (like REV Birmingham, Birmingham Business Alliance) with the exception of RPCGB (Regional Planning Commission of Greater Birmingham) mostly employ white men and women as well with only 1 or 2 black employees and those people are usually either administrative assistants or low-on-the-totem-pole coordinators.

Overall, this movement is being led by mostly white urban professionals with some blacks political officials being the ceremonial heads of the accomplishments. However, there are very few black professional that aren't elected to office (like Birmingham City Councilman Johnathan Austin) directly involved in most of these initiatives. I have plenty of friends that are either urban planners or community development professionals that have confirmed this to be still a fact of the matter with Birmingham's revitalization.

Oh yeah, I'm a black LGBT male that is a Birmingham native and former urban planning professional in the region that moved to Atlanta recently...

[jero23]

Originally Posted by HipLib

I'm a white male, part-time cab driver in Birmingham. Here are some of my observations on this subject: The Elephant In The Backseat | birmingcabbie

That is one of the most honest writings I've seen about racial issues I've seen in a while from a fellow blogger. It's quite refreshing...