Interesting article on Birmingham City Center (Huntsville, Louisville: rental, hotels, neighborhood)

[Mississippi Alabama Line]

Originally Posted by CP4912

The school system in Birmingham is pretty poor compared to other areas in the south. The Hoover schools are the only ones that rank high. No wonder people leave. The image of the city from the prospective of outsiders is not very good. It is attractive for cheap labor, such as Amazon distribution center requires but does not attract high tech or conventions. Seeing on YouTube city officials fighting does not help either.

I agree about the overall perception of Birmingham. Your comments about the schools are pretty wrong, though.

At this point, Birmingham needs to embrace that maybe the cheap labor pool is a strength. Not everyone can be Austin or Seattle, at least not overnight. Nashville and Atlanta have plenty of cheap labor too.

[jero23]

Originally Posted by JesseRohr

Maybe my wife and I are the exception and not the rule but a lot data points thrown out in this thread simply don’t apply to us. We left the suburbs for downtown.

Quick rundown: We relocated here from Lexington, KY in April 2016. We only had 45 days to find a home and allowed this very forum to sway us into moving into Edgewood area in Homewood. Long story short, we hated it. We both are career oriented, no kids purposely, and in our mid 30’s and could not deal with how little Homewood had to offer after 8pm. We were in a stroller hell that did not support our lifestyle. Our high level of income and kid free lifestyle had us downtown nearly every night.

In December we picked up and moved to the Glen Iris neighborhood downtown. We grabbed a beautifully renovated 1920’s Craftsman Bugalow with a 3/4 acre lot right in the heart UAB’s western edge. Walkabikity isn’t ideal but bike access is awesome to ANY part of downtown. We have delievery access to incredible takeout from all sorts of places. We are a quick UBER anywhere we frequent and enjoy all the other anecdotal benefits that come with downtown living.

Things that didn’t keep us in the burbs:
- Schools. (No Kids) I didn’t grow up here but I am baffled by the school logic in general. I’m used to people living where they want and if the schools weren’t up to snuff they put their child in private school if they had the means instead of paying an anstromical premium to live in some awful pseudo city because the schools are better. Stop underwriting schools with your mortgages folks.
- Sq Ft per Dollar. Simply put we got a much better house for our dollar in an area that will likely yield a much higher ROI later once downtown “pops”
- Crime. Crime didn’t scare us away from buying a house downtown. There’s crime everywhere I’ve ever lived and even Homewood had theft occasionally. With proper research we stayed away from problem areas and sleep soundly at night.
- Tax incentives. Taxes are such a negligible decision maker honestly. I’d rather enjoy my dwelling and location than fret over a couple bucks here or there.

The renovation projects and real estate market in my part of downtown is hot. My circle of friends are voting with their feet and moving downtown because that’s what’s important to us. Being in the heart of the action.

My biggest gripe is the fragmented city governments. I’ve always lived places with much larger city governments for the betterment of the metro areas. Lexington’s LFUCG and Sarasota Co FL have a much better handle on development that Birmingham seems lost to.

*Please excuse typos from my iPhone

I concur with the embolden parts. Also people who want to live intown then they should just vote with their feet and make the least problematic areas their destinations. Honestly, the only parts of the City that are truly problematic are Southwest Birmingham (the parts that are north of Red Mountain and south of Ensley) and North Birmingham, the rest of the City is pretty decent and ready for redevelopment. Also people who want live intown but cannot deal with the schools should put pressure on Birmingham BOE to stop blocking charter schools within the City. Vote out those on the BOE members that are against charter schools because the more variety and choices the betterment of Birmingham.

[jero23]

Originally Posted by creeksitter

I thought this thread was about the city center (CBD) so I'll comment about that.

Atlanta's CBD is a victim of its own success. Nothing but wall to wall office buildings: you need residents to get a vibrant downtown. Don't look to Atlanta for development.

Birmingham has a well defined downtown that is just the right size for the metro. Good boundaries and that is important. I see new residential buildings going up, I see a grocery store, I see lots of historic storefronts that can be locations for innovative restaurants and stores. Or already are. Birmingham has all the right ingredients, including vacant lots for new development.

Don't look to Nashville. Nashville has somehow captured lightning in a bottle and that can't be replicated.

I will speak of a couple other cities that I am familiar with that have good downtowns and could give lessons to Bham even though they are smaller.

Chattanooga has a huge downtown for its size if you couth the south side. It has a lot of vacant land that is being developed for residential and new commercial. One thing you'll notice is a brand new elementary school. That is bound to be an amenity to keep young families in the city center. They have gigabit internet. Now Chattanooga has so much room they are even building townhouses and detached homes within the boundaries provided by the interstates, I think Bham can stick to multi family as it has great detached housing just outside the boundaries. Chattanooga's development was spearheaded by very wealthy citizens - Is the wealth in the Bham suburbs involved with promoting downtown?

Knoxville has had a more grass roots development. There was a dead time in the 80s and 90s but due to a change in zoning and building codes, formerly vacant department stores and class B office buildings are now sought after apartments and lofts. Residents is what makes downtown pop. The vast majority of historical storefronts are now in use for restaurants, stores, bars etc. One thing that really helped was the city built parking garages that were free on evenings and weekends. So people could come from outside the core and be assured of a place to park. The mechanism for most of the conversions were TIFs. Do you have those in Alabama?

I don't think the answer is more job centers downtown. Downtown Bham has jobs now, it needs more residents and restaurants. In a few years you may be able to market to Atlanta retirees and that could be a huge boon.

I agree with the Atlanta comparison, but Birmingham can compare itself to Nashville as both still within the same league of influence. Nashville just popped in the past 7 years, so it's not impossible for Birmingham to emulate this type of redevelopment while picking up on its momentum of growth. Nashville's recent transit referendum failure reminds me what happened back in the late 1990s with the MAPS referendum failure here. It didn't appear to slow things down initially but things did slow down with time. I wouldn't be surprised if the same slowdown doesn't occur with Nashville now since adequate regional transit is off the table. I see what you are saying about Chattanooga and Knoxville, but Birmingham has more in common with other places of similar size as Louisville and Richmond. Nashville is still achievable level of growth for Birmingham as this city has just as much potential.

The things that hold/held Birmingham back has been poor leadership, lack of regional cooperation, and incoherent and inept attempts of retail only economic development recruitment to the region. Birmingham has the foundation and size to amplify its revitalization groove even further with the huge pushes of Innovate Birmingham and Tech Birmingham, but the mentality of this region's leadership and prominent people will be to think quality growth rather than quantity growth for the sake of growth like what I see here in Atlanta. I doubt Birmingham ever be like growth-wise as rapid as Austin, but it can certainly go for the more steady type of growth you see in places like Raleigh/Durham has over the past 6 decades or economic stability like Pittsburgh with its push for STEM type of career recruitment and retention.

Another thing is Birmingham doesn't really need more retirees unless they are going to fit and like the socially progressive culture and sociopolitical environment of the intown areas. The last thing Birmingham needs is someone pushing for the City to go back towards being some "small town-minded" place because that has hurt this place more than helped it. Birmingham should be more New South economically and culturally and pay homage to the Old South in only certain aspects.

[jero23]

Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line

I agree about the overall perception of Birmingham. Your comments about the schools are pretty wrong, though.

At this point, Birmingham needs to embrace that maybe the cheap labor pool is a strength. Not everyone can be Austin or Seattle, at least not overnight. Nashville and Atlanta have plenty of cheap labor too.

Cheap labor can be supplement, but not the main thing. That recent economic report shows that 'cheap labor' aka manufacturing type of jobs puts Birmingham in more of a threat of decline than sustainability. The data center and high tech manufacturing type of jobs are what should make up the majority of the 'cheap labor' base in Birmingham since there are programs at Lawson State and Jefferson State already are in place to educate, train those whom want those type of careers.

[_OT]

Originally Posted by Mississippi Alabama Line

I agree you can't look to Atlanta or Nashville, but not for the reasons you mentioned. Atlanta and Nashville are booming, so that takes them directly out of the equation. People are moving to those two towns in droves, which seems to be exactly what you want. You can certainly learn a lot from them though, namely that it's jobs and the economy, more than any regulations or whatever.

Now, if you don't have that, then yes, looking to Knoxville and Chattanooga are great ideas.

Even still, having a well-defined downtown really is overrated in my opinion. I mean Bessemer has a well-defined downtown grid, Hoover does not. Which city is thriving?

I agree with him. Birmingham should NOT look towards Nashville, Atlanta, or any other Sunbelt City for that matter, when it comes to physical development.

They should learn from cities like Oakland, Portland, Grand Rapids, or Seattle. Especially when it comes to Urbanization and Infill.

Originally Posted by CP4912

The school system in Birmingham is pretty poor compared to other areas in the south. The Hoover schools are the only ones that rank high. No wonder people leave. The image of the city from the prospective of outsiders is not very good. It is attractive for cheap labor, such as Amazon distribution center requires but does not attract high tech or conventions. Seeing on YouTube city officials fighting does not help either.

lol there's nothing wrong with Cheap Labor. I have a cousin who lives in Fort Worth, works at an Amazon Distribution Center; she has a House, a Camaro, Pays her bills on time, Travels very well, etc. She's doing very well for herself, oh and I forgot to mention that she's a single mother with no college education.

[creeksitter]

Birmingham doesn't really need more retirees unless they are going to fit and like the socially progressive culture and sociopolitical environment of the intown areas.

I can't imagine retirees choosing downtown Bham unless they are socially and politically progressive or at least leaning in that direction. I don't see it appealing to the gated golf community crowd.

What I had pictured was UMC retirees, most likely AAs who like the appeal of a community where a car is optional, a new(er) one level flat with an elevator. Someplace with cultural attractions & a variety of restaurants. Clubs that appeal to an older, affluent black clientele would be a big draw. Is that an option in midtown ATL? How do the midtown rents compare to the units being built in Bham.

I didn't mention Richmond and Louisville because I haven't been to Richmond and my last visit to Louisville (4 yrs ago) it didn't appear to have much residential base it the CBD.

[Peter1948]

Originally Posted by creeksitter

I can't imagine retirees choosing downtown Bham unless they are socially and politically progressive or at least leaning in that direction. I don't see it appealing to the gated golf community crowd.

What I had pictured was UMC retirees, most likely AAs who like the appeal of a community where a car is optional, a new(er) one level flat with an elevator. Someplace with cultural attractions & a variety of restaurants. Clubs that appeal to an older, affluent black clientele would be a big draw. Is that an option in midtown ATL? How do the midtown rents compare to the units being built in Bham.

I didn't mention Richmond and Louisville because I haven't been to Richmond and my last visit to Louisville (4 yrs ago) it didn't appear to have much residential base it the CBD.

My how downtown Louisville has changed...you should come back. Thousands of new units and thousands more announced. Louisville still has too much awesome urban housing stock outside the CBD and that remains the focus of urban living, though. Birmingham isn't too dissimilar there.

[Atlanta Scientist]

Originally Posted by creeksitter

I can't imagine retirees choosing downtown Bham unless they are socially and politically progressive or at least leaning in that direction. I don't see it appealing to the gated golf community crowd.

What I had pictured was UMC retirees, most likely AAs who like the appeal of a community where a car is optional, a new(er) one level flat with an elevator. Someplace with cultural attractions & a variety of restaurants. Clubs that appeal to an older, affluent black clientele would be a big draw. Is that an option in midtown ATL? How do the midtown rents compare to the units being built in Bham.

I didn't mention Richmond and Louisville because I haven't been to Richmond and my last visit to Louisville (4 yrs ago) it didn't appear to have much residential base it the CBD.

All of that is going to come at a price as Midtown Atlanta shows. There has been a trend of empty nesters moving back into cities but unless housing keeps up with demand, prices are going to rise. I imagine that rent in Birmingham is nothing compared to Midtown Atlanta. Rent difference between downtown vs Midtown Atlantais almost insane.

I do think Midtown Atlanta is good model. It's transformation from nothing to being the place to be is pretty amazing. It is putting people over cars and that is making it a better place to live and to work and attracting all kinds of development.

[creeksitter]

I imagine that rent in Birmingham is nothing compared to Midtown Atlanta. Rent difference between downtown vs Midtown Atlanta is almost insane.

My point exactly. What are the rents in Midtown Atlanta? Is there a price differential between high rise and mid rise buildings? When you say downtown is it downtown ATL or Birmingham? What are the rents in downtown Bham? I see a lot of mid rise construction, are there any high rise conversions of older buildings?

Peter, is the residential in Louisville's CBD high rise or mid rise? What are the rents?

By midrise I mean 5-6 stories and wood construction. I've assumed the higher costs of taller buildings is reflected in higher rents. It that the case?

[jero23]

Originally Posted by creeksitter

My point exactly. What are the rents in Midtown Atlanta? Is there a price differential between high rise and mid rise buildings? When you say downtown is it downtown ATL or Birmingham? What are the rents in downtown Bham? I see a lot of mid rise construction, are there any high rise conversions of older buildings?

Peter, is the residential in Louisville's CBD high rise or mid rise? What are the rents?

By midrise I mean 5-6 stories and wood construction. I've assumed the higher costs of taller buildings is reflected in higher rents. It that the case?

The average rent for newer units that have/are coming online are $1,200-1,500/month. Downtown Birmingham has very similar rates to Midtown Atlanta these days. I've heard about the residential units coming online in Avondale and Lakeview are similar rates as well.