New York Times Article comparing Birmingham and Nashville (Montgomery, Hoover: employment, live)

[ColdAilment]

Originally Posted by censusdata

Seems like being a state capital boosts metro area growth. Atlanta, Nashville, Raleigh, Austin are all state capital boom towns. Indy and Columbus OH outgrow nearby metros that aren't capitals. I think it's one factor giving Nashville a leg up on Memphis, Birmingham, and Louisville.

I think Birmingham has a lot of positives. Scenic mountainous topography, nice older core around Five Points, and location with mild winters but no hurricanes.

That's a hard point to argue, either way. Tallahassee, Baton Rouge, Springfield, Jackson, and Lansing all have good things going for them, but most are small cities and don't particularly stand out besides being a capital.

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by JesseRohr

I wanted to believe that this post was dripping with sarcasm but then I realized you really mean that.

I travel 70% of the time for work into major metros. Most of those said metros have light or heavy rail and it's quite convenient. The job that requires all the travel, is in automotive manufacturing. Your statement about self driving cars being the answer is comically far fetched.

Yea I'm with you on this one LOL! Everywhere I've been that has light rail find it quite convenient and have integrated it into the environment without a ton of drama. I understand the issue of routes changing from time to time but in the case of Birmingham pursuing LRT at least in the initial stages it would be on very stable or primary routes. I'm thinking either a 20th St Magic City Connector line or the incoming East-West BRT route assuming it's successful would be the top candidates for light rail in Birmingham

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by steveklein

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think that if (when?) self-driving cars become commonplace, it will cause the total number of cars/SUVs/light trucks manufactured to drop by a lot. Like... it would impact sales far, far, far more than you could ever dream light rail or subways or buses would ever do. 50% or more I would think. The key is to make them friendly to the environment. Or at least as friendly as the market will allow.

Even though it is technically possible I don't see self driving cars ever becoming commonplace or dominating US roadways or at the very least not in our lifetimes.

[jero23]

Most of the cities that pursue light rail transit is by inducing more demand. Most cities with LRT mentioned are technically not dense enough to support LRT either but it is there nevertheless. LRT in Birmingham would achieve two goals, increased mobility and induce (incentive) more demand for higher density within key areas.

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by jero23

Most of the cities that pursue light rail transit is by inducing more demand. Most cities with LRT mentioned are technically not dense enough to support LRT either but it is there nevertheless. LRT in Birmingham would achieve two goals, increased mobility and induce (incentive) more demand for higher density within key areas.

That's a great point to keep in mind concerning cities B'ham's size that are technically not dense enough for LRT yet light rail is in these cities and thriving. To that point I would love to see Birmingham bring in a light rail route (Magic City Connector or East West BRT) and see the increased mobility and efficiency and quite frankly improved aesthetic induce more demand. I think that is doable and probably preferable for the long term health of B'ham's public transit.

[harry chickpea]

Has anyone ever DRIVEN 280? or 65 south of B'ham? Any LRT would have to either be tunnel, trestle, or cog railway. A railroad grade of 2% is considered steep.

[cherokee48]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

Has anyone ever DRIVEN 280? or 65 south of B'ham? Any LRT would have to either be tunnel, trestle, or cog railway. A railroad grade of 2% is considered steep.

The specific routes for potential LRT in Birmingham would be in the city center and the outlying neighborhoods of the inner city at least in the initial stages rather than the Hwy 280 and I-65 corridor areas. I would defer to the engineers about the grading of the land and what would be required to develop light rail in the suburban areas over the mountain but tunnels, trestles, or cog railways would probably not be needed to implement light rail on the Magic City Connector line or the incoming East-West BRT line in the city. I do think implementing light rail in the city proper is much more feasible than in other areas of the metro, but Hwy 280 could be high on the priority list for metro area routes.

[tacosman]

Going back to the start of the thread, I'm puzzled as to why any comparison of cities like nashville would ever be made with birmingham. We're talking about totally different sizes/density/populations/reaches/etc.......some people may prefer the hustle/bustle of a bigger area like nashville, and some people would prefer a smaller area like Bham.

I think better comparisons to Birmingham(and it's immediate areas like homewood, MB, hoover, vestavia) are cities like
Jackson,Ms and Greenville,Nc and Augusta, Ga and Chattanooga,tn. Yeah Birmingham may be a little bigger than some of those areas(I'd have to look at the numbers), but those are much more relevant comparisons than Birmingham to freaking nashville lol.......which despite being much bigger is also a tourist hub for the entire country in some ways(which Bham most definately is....and I like that)

[Nemean]

Originally Posted by tacosman

Going back to the start of the thread, I'm puzzled as to why any comparison of cities like nashville would ever be made with birmingham. We're talking about totally different sizes/density/populations/reaches/etc.......some people may prefer the hustle/bustle of a bigger area like nashville, and some people would prefer a smaller area like Bham.

I think better comparisons to Birmingham(and it's immediate areas like homewood, MB, hoover, vestavia) are cities like
Jackson,Ms and Greenville,Nc and Augusta, Ga and Chattanooga,tn. Yeah Birmingham may be a little bigger than some of those areas(I'd have to look at the numbers), but those are much more relevant comparisons than Birmingham to freaking nashville lol.......which despite being much bigger is also a tourist hub for the entire country in some ways(which Bham most definately is....and I like that)

City | urban area pop | metro pop

Nashville|1,158,642|2,072,283
Birmingham|774,956|1,181,196

Jackson|347,693|610,904
Greenville, SC|387,271|958,958
Augusta|431,480|624,083
Chattanooga|398,569|574,507

Greenville SC is the only one close-ish, but only when talking about the metro. There's not really a nearby urban area with similar urban area pop as Birmingham (Bham's in a cluster with Sarasota, McAllen, Albuquerque and sorta Tulsa & Fresno on the low end with Omaha on the high end. After that, it's getting to over 10% pop difference). Metro-wise, Birmingham's on top of a cluster of Bham, Fresno, Buffalo, Hartford, and Grand Rapids all within 50k, but really Louisville, Memphis, & Richmond are the closest to Bham metro-wise in the South on the high end, and Tulsa, New Orleans & Greenville on the low end. Urban area wise, though, Louisville, Memphis, Richmond & New Orleans are all closer to a million in pop.

I guess, with those to measures, the best metros/UAs in the entire US comparable to Birmingham are: Tulsa, Rochester, and Fresno.

[tacosman]

Originally Posted by Nemean

City | urban area pop | metro pop

Nashville|1,158,642|2,072,283
Birmingham|774,956|1,181,196

Jackson|347,693|610,904
Greenville, SC|387,271|958,958
Augusta|431,480|624,083
Chattanooga|398,569|574,507

Greenville SC is the only one close-ish, but only when talking about the metro. There's not really a nearby urban area with similar urban area pop as Birmingham (Bham's in a cluster with Sarasota, McAllen, Albuquerque and sorta Tulsa & Fresno on the low end with Omaha on the high end. After that, it's getting to over 10% pop difference). Metro-wise, Birmingham's on top of a cluster of Bham, Fresno, Buffalo, Hartford, and Grand Rapids all within 50k, but really Louisville, Memphis, & Richmond are the closest to Bham metro-wise in the South on the high end, and Tulsa, New Orleans & Greenville on the low end. Urban area wise, though, Louisville, Memphis, Richmond & New Orleans are all closer to a million in pop.

I guess, with those to measures, the best metros/UAs in the entire US comparable to Birmingham are: Tulsa, Rochester, and Fresno.

Lol.....1.18 million? The only bham gets to those sort of numbers is defining areas that are not realistically part of the birmingham area. How far do you have to draw the circle to get that ridiculous number? I bet practically tuscaloosa lol (likewise greenville doesnt have near a million people either)

In reality the "birmingham area" in a meaningful sense probably has about 450k-475k people.

It goes beyond numbers though. Nashville is a destination city. They have music row and broadway and every women in the entire country knows thats where you go for bachelors parties. Birmingham is not any of those(and thats ok)......

Birmingham has far more in common with cities like Montgomery,Al and Columbus,Ga than freaking Nashville, Austin, etc.....even if birmingham is bigger than those places.

Louisville, New Orleans, Memphis.......these are all much more prominent cities than Birmingham as well(although not nashville). It goes to identity as well.

A good way to find out how a city is viewed is to ask others with no connection to the city what they think of it. I guarantee that random people in another state with no connection to birmingham would place it alongside cities like Montgomery, Jackson, Columbus(ga), Buffalo, grand rapids, etc vs some of those other cities. Well buffalo is a little tricky because they have the bills and everyone knows them for that, but apart from that it's the same vibe.

Note that I'm not bashing our city; I love it. I don't want to be charlotte or nashville. Most people think of birmingham as a "what if" city.....meaning maybe it could have taken more of an atlanta or nashville trajectory had things played out with logistics planning way way way back. But then traffic would suck and it would be worse imo.

But i'm guarantee you nobody in cities like Nashville are wondering how they compare to birmingham lol.
If you were going to put cities into tiers, there would be more than just a one tier difference between birmingham and nashville. (I could see just a 1 tier difference between memphis and birmingham.....btw memphis sucks lol)