Why is the Chicago "Blaccent" More Southern than Boston/NYC/Philly's? (Atlanta: house, live)

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Atlanta_BD

One also has to take into account that the southern blacks in Chicago (whether they are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation) are descendants of slaves. As slaves blacks by law were not allowed to read or write. Black slaves were taken from African countries where their first language was Wolof, Fullah or some other West African dialect, then brought to America and forced to learn to speak English while at the same time being forbidden to formally learn the language.

This "blaccent" we speak of was born out of the forced illiteracy of African slaves.

Again, most blacks in the Northeast are descendants of American slaves. I'm just wondering why the blacks in the Northeast largely adopted the regional dialect common among whites whereas blacks in Chicago did not.

And I don't think immigration has much to do with it. Not everyone lives in Brooklyn. There are also a lot of black people in East Trenton, Camden, Paterson, Reading, Allentown, Chester, etc. And there aren't too many West Indians in those places.

[Atlanta_BD]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

Again, most blacks in the Northeast are descendants of American slaves. I'm just wondering why the blacks in the Northeast largely adopted the regional dialect common among whites whereas blacks in Chicago did not.

And I don't think immigration has much to do with it. Not everyone lives in Brooklyn. There are also a lot of black people in East Trenton, Camden, Paterson, Reading, Allentown, Chester, etc. And there aren't too many West Indians in those places.

I've never lived in the Northeast so that's a question that I can't answer. I can only speak from the perspective of a native Chicagoan whose parents are from the south, along with thousands of other black Chicagoans. I think culturally blacks in the Chicago still hold on to southern ways and keep close ties with their family members still living in the south. I know my family did.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Drover

Still sounds like he's saying "woodah" and "theah-duh" and "renge-uh" to my highly rhotic ears. Though it's less consistently non-rhotic than a classic NY or Boston accent ("door" for instance).

I'd agree with that.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by Atlanta_BD

I've never lived in the Northeast so that's a question that I can't answer. I can only speak from the perspective of a native Chicagoan whose parents are from the south, along with thousands of other black Chicagoans. I think culturally blacks in the Chicago still hold on to southern ways and keep close ties with their family members still living in the south. I know my family did.

When the wife and I take I-57 down to see her family, it's not uncommon to see a convoy of cars with Mississippi or Arkansas plates headed one way or the other. Sometimes Tennessee too.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Atlanta_BD

I've never lived in the Northeast so that's a question that I can't answer. I can only speak from the perspective of a native Chicagoan whose parents are from the south, along with thousands of other black Chicagoans. I think culturally blacks in the Chicago still hold on to southern ways and keep close ties with their family members still living in the south. I know my family did.

I don't know that much about Chicago. How much interaction did Chicago blacks have with ethnic whites (or other non-blacks period)?

[Atlanta_BD]

I also think it has to do with what states blacks in Chicago and the Northeast immigrated from. Chicago is mostly people from Alabama and Mississippi with some from Arkansas, a some from Tennessee. Where asthe Northeast may be more of the Carolinas. Even within the south, the various states have their own sub-cultures and dialects.

[MichiVegas]

Originally Posted by It'sAutomatic

You're really overestimating the numbers of black immigrants. Just looking around Wikipedia (not a perfect source, I know), it says that Jamaicans are 3.5% of the population of the borough (1), yet African-Americans (including Jamaicans) are 35.8% of the population (2). This is the borough most associated with West Indian immigration. In the Bronx, Sub-Saharan Africans make up 4.4% of the population versus 30.8% of total blacks (3).

There's no way that Jamaicans are only 3.5% of Brooklyn. That's simply wrong.

And Jamaica is only one country in the West Indies. Any visit to a black neighborhood in Brooklyn would see a huge West Indian presence, and probably moreso than a traditional African American presence. Really only Bed Stuy never had a large West Indian influence, and Bed Stuy is gentrifying and not that black in parts nowadays anyways.

Originally Posted by It'sAutomatic

Your tales of non-American black influence are interesting and not incorrect, but I do think you're discounting lots of long-standing AA neighborhoods. There is a lot of West Indian influence in all of these, but Fort Greene, Bed-Stuy, Brownsville, and East New York are huge and have been 95% black since before Caribbean immigration was a thing, and while I'm not there on the ground to prove it, I don't think all of the black people got up and moved out. Not to mention Harlem, East Harlem & LES (public housing), the entire south half of the Bronx, and south Queens...

Fort Greene and East NY were never close to 95% AA, ever. Fort Greene has always had a large white population, even back in the 70's and 80's, and East NY has always had a large Hispanic population (in fact many parts are majority Hispanic). Brownsville and Bed Stuy, yes, but the African American population in Brownsville is mostly in public housing, and the homeownership neighborhoods in Brownsville (like around Brookdale Hospital) are mostly West Indian. Bed Stuy I already explained was an exception, and is a mixed area anyways at this point.

Southeast Queens, all of it, has a big West Indian presence. Northeast Bronx, all of it, has a big West Indian presence. Harlem and East Harlem are very mixed neighborhoods, East Harlem has never had a black majority, and Central Harlem is gentrifying like crazy, not that big a black population these days, and I already said was an exception.

[Atlanta_BD]

Originally Posted by BajanYankee

I don't know that much about Chicago. How much interaction did Chicago blacks have with ethnic whites (or other non-blacks period)?

Outside of segregation in Chicago, for a lot of blacks who speak in the way you describe, if you were black in Chicago and you spoke like a white person, you were looked down upon as trying to be something other than you're not or accused of trying to be better than other blacks, or as it's called, "talking proper."

If you were black in Chicago and you "talked proper" you were prone to being harassed. My sister and I used to get bullied a lot because we didn't speak with that southern-style accent typical of a lot of Chicago blacks, but then, we didn't grow up in the ghetto. We were born in Beverly then went to majority white schools when were very little before (we lived in Springfield and Rock Island for a while), then also we went to school in Evanston. So whenever we'd moved back to the south side, we didn't talk like the other kids.

But then none of our black friends who grew up in Beverly with us talked with a southern accent either.

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by Atlanta_BD

Outside of segregation in Chicago, for a lot of blacks who speak in the way you describe, if you were black in Chicago and you spoke like a white person, you were looked down upon as trying to be something other than you're not or accused of trying to be better than other blacks, or as it's called, "talking proper."

If you were black in Chicago and you "talked proper" you were prone to being harassed. My sister and I used to get bullied a lot because we didn't speak with that southern-style accent typical of a lot of Chicago blacks, but then, we didn't grow up in the ghetto. We were born in Beverly then went to majority white schools when were very little before (we lived in Springfield and Rock Island for a while), then also we went to school in Evanston. So whenever we'd moved back to the south side, we didn't talk like the other kids.

But then none of our black friends who grew up in Beverly with us talked with a southern accent either.

I don't think of whites in Philadelphia or the rest of the Northeast as "talking proper." It's not so much the diction and grammar as it is the pronunciation of certain words and the overall accent. You can speak technically perfect English while sounding like Fran Drescher.

[BajanYankee]

The Philadelphia accent becomes most apparent in words like "down," "house," "sure" and "beautiful." "Down" is said more like DAY-uhn and "house" is said more like HAY-ouse.


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