Greater Cleveland mass transit (Green, Gordon: apartment complex, shops, authority)

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by 216facts

I have been a bit of a critic of the Waterfront line in the past, basically measuring ridership vs money spent. I'm all for rail, and tend to be optimistic on the long term prospects for TOD in general. Perhaps the WL proves itself when more residential development occurs around the stadium. I am glad it is coming back on line.

On another note, this latest on the CVSR extension may be a bit gloomy. Apparently the city released itself from a lien on rail rights-of-way south out of Tower city. NEOtrans article at: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2023/...lroad.html?m=1

From the NEOtrans article: "Two decades ago, CVSR-led studies showed that an extension 10 miles north to downtown Cleveland could cost about $20 million in track and other infrastructure improvements. The result would be an increase of annual ridership from about 200,000 passengers pre-pandemic to 300,000 passengers after the extension."

Would be unfortunate if a developer got in the way of public transportation improvements. Time will tell.

On the Waterfront Line -- Yes, it had bad rider numbers, but I think the WL got caught in between 2 terrible events: the decline, then the rebirth of Flats East Bank, and, in between, the terrible RTA administration of Joe Calabrese. Joe C never cared for rail and quietly began de-emphasizing it from the day he took office: foolishly removing the all-night rail service tradition (maybe even predating RTA) on New Year's Eve to ferry often drunken revelers home (and their cars off the street). He began choking off rail service even to downtown fireworks in the Flats, ... and the list goes on.

But by the time of the new, reborn Flats East Bank, which opened to its present form in around 2015, Calabrese had driven home the idea that the Waterfront Line was a failure and, by then, only offered token service: every half hour with trains foolishly ending 7p every night, even weekends (reversing the Tober Admin's pro-rail position of smartly running WL trains more frequently and, during packed summers into the Flats on weekend nights, running them til past 2a... and people were riding. But as the Flats East Bank began building up steam, and growth in the late 2000-teens, Joe C held back WL service then convincing downtown businesses to finance free bus trolleys -- till only 11p, to run in place of the WL -- which was better equipped to handle crowds (Trolleys were often stuck in traffic)... Now with the Trolleys gone, Joe C (thankfully gone), and the WL now in its 3rd year of no service, there is NOTHING... So, again, I hope the Birdsong Admin does better by the WL at least offering more service, esp on weekends, to combat the greedy surface parking barrons who are jacking up rates absurdly...

216 -- Killing rail service is a self-fulfilling prophecy: cut it to its bare bones so it's inconvenient to the public, then turn around and sell the public on the myth/idea that the rail service sucks. The Joe C experience historically echoes how GM killed rail transit in cities across the country with GM's rail is antiquated while pumping the 'American's Love Affair' with the automobile B.S.

[TheProf]

As for CVSR, this is a total joke/disaster. Bedrock/Gilbert could care 2 you-know-whats about rail transit. Dude is from Detroit, after all. Has he ever promoted Rapid riding to his treasured Horseshoe-turned Jack casino? No, not even given the fact that Cleveland's main rail hub sits directly inside Jack Casino's basement. Gilbert is solely focused on parking and parking garages and, maybe, a few tour bus excursions.

The sad thing is I have no doubt that Bibb, Ronayne & Co will roll over and keep quiet because Dan is so powerful and, yes, his shiny new mega-project for Tower City will cause these officials to keep quiet -- about CVSR or even the brighter prospect of Amtrak returning to its rightful home inside Tower City. It will be especially vexing to see Ronayne kowtow to Gilbert on this, given Chris' strong pro-transit, pro-walkability, 15-minute city stance.... Oh well, such is life in Cleveland.

[216facts]

Originally Posted by TheProf

On the Waterfront Line -- Yes, it had bad rider numbers, but I think the WL got caught in between 2 terrible events: the decline, then the rebirth of Flats East Bank, and, in between, the terrible RTA administration of Joe Calabrese. Joe C never cared for rail and quietly began de-emphasizing it from the day he took office: foolishly removing the all-night rail service tradition (maybe even predating RTA) on New Year's Eve to ferry often drunken revelers home (and their cars off the street). He began choking off rail service even to downtown fireworks in the Flats, ... and the list goes on.

But by the time of the new, reborn Flats East Bank, which opened to its present form in around 2015, Calabrese had driven home the idea that the Waterfront Line was a failure and, by then, only offered token service: every half hour with trains foolishly ending 7p every night, even weekends (reversing the Tober Admin's pro-rail position of smartly running WL trains more frequently and, during packed summers into the Flats on weekend nights, running them til past 2a... and people were riding. But as the Flats East Bank began building up steam, and growth in the late 2000-teens, Joe C held back WL service then convincing downtown businesses to finance free bus trolleys -- till only 11p, to run in place of the WL -- which was better equipped to handle crowds (Trolleys were often stuck in traffic)... Now with the Trolleys gone, Joe C (thankfully gone), and the WL now in its 3rd year of no service, there is NOTHING... So, again, I hope the Birdsong Admin does better by the WL at least offering more service, esp on weekends, to combat the greedy surface parking barrons who are jacking up rates absurdly...

216 -- Killing rail service is a self-fulfilling prophecy: cut it to its bare bones so it's inconvenient to the public, then turn around and sell the public on the myth/idea that the rail service sucks. The Joe C experience historically echoes how GM killed rail transit in cities across the country with GM's rail is antiquated while pumping the 'American's Love Affair' with the automobile B.S.

OK, fair enough, good argument and you've researched it more than I have for sure. Lets hope ridership starts to reverse in the coming years.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by 216facts

OK, fair enough, good argument and you've researched it more than I have for sure. Lets hope ridership starts to reverse in the coming years.

[OyCrumbler]

How has the temporary limited opening of the Waterfront line gone?

https://observer.case.edu/rta-waterf...-browns-games/

I understand it's pretty limited service up until spring or summer of next year, but hopefully the limited service it's having now is a harbinger of good things to come.

I still think it's bizarre that it's designated as its own line rather than extensions of the Blue and Green lines they really are.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by OyCrumbler

How has the temporary limited opening of the Waterfront line gone?

https://observer.case.edu/rta-waterf...-browns-games/

I understand it's pretty limited service up until spring or summer of next year, but hopefully the limited service it's having now is a harbinger of good things to come.

I still think it's bizarre that it's designated as its own line rather than extensions of the Blue and Green lines they really are.

I'm thrilled the Waterfront Line (WFL) is at least partially open. Hopefully RTA will get the other fixes done over the winter after the Browns season to get the line fully operational by Spring (don't hold your breath, though).

The WFL has been has been gone so long, this could be a great opportunity for RTA to reintroduce it to the public as a New Service, and really promote the thing. For several years after it first opened in 1996, it was widely used on weekends, esp evenings/nights when the Flats were the Hot New Thing. It was less used during the week, but there was some rush hour bump; my brother worked at North Point and lived in Shaker, and it was great for him. I remember in the early 2000s when I had to get tax estate docs from the Celebrezze Fed. Building, I hopped an afternoon Green Line train in Shaker, grabbed the docs and headed back home; it was a snap... RTA was running both Blue & Green trains through the WFL every 15 mins and service was great.

But then came RTA's GM Joe Calabrese, an anti-rail guy who (bad timing) came along when the Flats went into decline; Joe bad-mouth the WFL and cut rail service back. The clown even terminated the decades-long practice of all-night trains New Year's Eve -- a major boost for revelers drinking, esp. in downtown and in the Flats.... Calabrese unfortunately was at the helm (18 long, disastrous years) when Flats East Bank (FEB) was reborn into the robust, more permanent (office, hotel, apts) mixed use district it is today... and as a result, the WFL was never given a chance... since FEB's rebirth WFL trains always ran every 30 mins and terminated at 7p, even on weekends, which absolutely made zero sense, when restaurants and bars were just opening.

Current RTA GM India Birdsong now has a clean slate and correct the Calabrese mess and REALLY PROMOTE the WFL as a useful transit tool esp. transporting folks to the tight, narrow-streets, down-the-hill Flats East Bank (and West Bank which is an easy (and interesting) stroll over the Center Street Bridge, once its back open this fall. Heck, even the rising (exciting) new Scranton Peninsula apt complex is a short walking distance over the Carter St. Bridge from the WFL Settlers Landing station.

And with the RTA trolleys now gone from FEB and parking robber-barons now gouging drivers $20 (or MUCH more during Browns games), drivers have NO TRANSPORTATION OPTIONS... outside the Waterfront Line. Service should run all day and into the night similar to the Blue & Green lines of which the WFL is an extension: and every 15 mins during rush hours and evening Friday/Sat (plus Sat daytime) hours... AND, btw Memorial Day and Labor Day, Friday/Sat service until 2p -- was it was done during the (much) more transit friendly Ron Tober RTA administration -- he, after all, built the WFL as well as successfully lobbied moving the Cavs downtown to Gund (now RMFH) Arena by advocating building the indoor walkway from Tower City to the arena.

We should all get behind this initiative and really push RTA on this.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by TheProf

RTA was running both Blue & Green trains through the WFL every 15 mins and service was great.

Having a minimum 15 minute service on all rail lines would be great. Truly a game changer. There's a massive difference between 15 minute and 30 minute service.

and West Bank which is an easy (and interesting) stroll over the Center Street Bridge, once its back open this fall.

You just made me realize that you could reasonably use the WFL to access the Aquarium.

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by ferraris

Having a minimum 15 minute service on all rail lines would be great. Truly a game changer. There's a massive difference between 15 minute and 30 minute service.






You just made me realize that you could reasonably use the WFL to access the Aquarium.

15 minutes is totally fine. 30 minutes? The line may as well not exist.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by ferraris

You just made me realize that you could reasonably use the WFL to access the Aquarium.

... and we did just that shortly after the new Power Plant Aquarium opened (I love fish-ies). Walking low over the Cuyahoga River on Center Street's old steel bridge is an interesting experience in itself. Afterwards, we went even further to lunch at Shooters on the water. Our complaint at the time was the City had done nothing to enhance the path from Settlers Landing to Center Street (going behind & next to the historic Flat Iron Café). It was weedy and dank back in those days... It appears this area's been fixed up to a degree and better lit, although I still do not believe there's a designated lighted walkway from the station... Just further evidence that, in so many ways, this city just doesn't get it with regard to its major rail transit advantages.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

15 minutes is totally fine. 30 minutes? The line may as well not exist.

15 minutes - minimum service for regular every day use. Checking a schedule is optional. Short distance trips can make sense. Transferring between 15 minute lines is a reasonable possibility.

30 minutes - I'll use it for events and destinations where parking/traffic is an issue. Short distance trips aren't worth it. Transferring is mostly not an option.

40+ minutes - Safety net service only. It's not even on my radar unless I have no car access