Any transplants considering elsewhere because front range is too crowded (Denver: real estate, HOA)
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I think that while it's true that housing prices have gone way up, I think there is also a bit of an entitlement attitude among younger people. My parents didn't buy a house until they were in their 30s and had been married for over a decade. They didn't expect to be able to afford one before that. I see some people who think that the salary at their first job out of school should be enough to afford to buy something or at least get a one bedroom apartment on their own. I didn't rent a one bedroom until I was in my 30s and had been working professionally for several years. Before that, I had roommates because that was the only way to afford to live in Boston.
But no I'm not planning on leaving Denver even though it's gotten more crowded and more expensive since I've been here. The reality is that I could never afford to live in as nice a house with as good schools as I currently have back in Boston. So while it's expensive "for Denver" it's still in my mind a bargain, or at least I'm thankful for th ie opportunity to have the lifestyle I have because I could not afford it in most other places I would want to live. And while the crowds can be irritating, there would not be all the kinds of amenities - the new restaurants and entertainment venues and theaters and museums and fun places like Stanley Marketplace – A food-centric, community-inspired marketplace for you & us if there was not a larger and growing population to support them
I'm not sure if it's entitlement when there is so much data available that illustrates the growing gap in affordability and lifestyle differences between younger generations today versus previous younger generations. The percentage of young people forced to live with their parents longer because of their college debt, lack of (good paying) job prospects, and lack of affordable housing has grown significantly. I don't have the expectation that I'll be better off than my parents, and I'm giving up on any expectation that I'll be as well off as my parents.
My GF and I have been working for nearly a decade, so definitely not on our first jobs out of college. Furthermore, our parents didn't even need to go to college to find a middle-class job to raise families and buy single family homes. While I didn't go to the most affordable college I could go to, I did go to the best college I got into (a top 3 public university) and graduated with a $50k bill which I'm just now finishing paying off. I realize now that college rankings are pointless, and the quality of your education is meaningless to most employers, but the lesson came with a steep price tag. Meanwhile, my dad (a truck driver) and my mom (a manufacturing factory worker) have a 5BR/3BA house with attached garage on a double lot in an up and coming area. They bought it over 20 years ago, in their mid-30s while they were raising four kids. I couldn't even dream of buying something like that today in the worst Denver-area neighborhoods, let alone have a family big enough to fill it. Heck, my 2BR/2BA condo with no garage is worth close to $100k more than their house.
The blame always gets thrown on young generations for being too entitled for their own good, because it's much easier than confronting the problems at hand. Why worry about something that's not my problem when I can bury my head in the sand and point fingers at others. Meanwhile, I've had to jump through significantly more hoops than my parents generation have ever had to do just to live some semblance of an independent adult lifestyle. We're probably going to forego parenthood simply due to the outrageous cost of raising them and sending them off to college. Hopefully, if any of you have kids, you'll start putting money aside early enough to afford them the college education they're going to need for a job when they're adults, and live with the expectation that they may not be able to move out of your house until much later in life than you did. Because it's likely just going to get worse and worse for ensuing generations.
Last edited by Thom Hanks; 06-25-2017 at 03:33 PM..
I really don't understand people harkening back to a time when they couldn't find jobs and the economy was so bad that the city they lived in was the foreclosure capital of America. To each their own.
I've been here a couple years. I think I've seen a lot of people idealizing what it would be like here and that's one of the things that disappoints them. When I talk to people where I moved from (DC-Baltimore), they have a really idealized version of what it's like here as well.
Moving here was the right decision for my family with where we're at right now. Cost of living was too high where we were for what we were getting (amazing as this may seem to people here who think it's higher here than pretty much anywhere). I can live in a good public school district and a good house; before I moved I could only get one or the other. My wife's parents live here and we had no family within 1,000 miles where we were.
There were good and bad things about where I lived before, and if priorities shifted I would move back if it made sense. I definitely wouldn't move back to Alaska (where I previously lived), though. Ever.
This place has good and bad things, and it's about individual priorities. It's not really cheap, which often smooths over a lot of bad things for people.
But if you want to live somewhere kind of unpopulated, you shouldn't move to places people generally like. They just collect more people.
There's definitely a mystic to Colorado that is similar to a "gold rush" mentality where people think they will "strike it rich" in their quality of life here. When the reality is, other than the mountains, this area has the same amenities one can get in any other large city.
There's definitely a mystic to Colorado that is similar to a "gold rush" mentality where people think they will "strike it rich" in their quality of life here. When the reality is, other than the mountains, this area has the same amenities one can get in any other large city.
Granted, if you're not from the Mountain West, it's fun for the first few years. The mountain views, the ample warm and sunny weather, bike trails, hiking trails, and skiing is a lot of fun. But the novelty of it tends to fade over the years for some people. I know a lot of people who've moved here from the Midwest and east coast, lived for 5-10 years, and then headed back closer to home when they were thinking of starting families. It definitely has an allure, but I've found that it doesn't last forever, especially as conditions for making a living have gotten worse for many people.
The crowding, although a nuisance, isn't as much of a concern to me as COL. My GF and I have been discussing relocation to a more affordable region so that we can afford to upgrade from where we're at. Despite my condo value going up significantly over the last two years, all the other homes that we'd like to eventually upgrade to are going up just as much or more. And we're not even looking in the hip or trendy neighborhoods. We just want to find a 2-3BR/2BA townhome with a garage and/or a basement under $325k, but it's becoming more and more difficult to find something like this.
Millennials and future generations have been left with a pretty poor situation in terms of affordable places to live with access to good jobs, not just in Denver, but across the country. Combined, we make over six figures and have no kids, yet we feel like we can only afford the minimum here in Denver while also being financially responsible and not going overboard on housing costs. The cost to be a functional, contributing member of society has gone through the roof given the costs for college tuition and living expenses. Unfortunately, Denver is not an exception here. Many larger cities that have access to good jobs and amenities have priced young professionals out of the housing market.
Not just millennials, but the older generation whose kids have moved on and are looking to downsize. I am the third person in my circle of friends/acquaintances that have moved away from Colorado in order to settle into our retirement years in a place with a lower cost of living.
I'm not sure if it's entitlement when there is so much data available that illustrates the growing gap in affordability and lifestyle differences between younger generations today versus previous younger generations. The percentage of young people forced to live with their parents longer because of their college debt, lack of (good paying) job prospects, and lack of affordable housing has grown significantly. I don't have the expectation that I'll be better off than my parents, and I'm giving up on any expectation that I'll be as well off as my parents.
My GF and I have been working for nearly a decade, so definitely not on our first jobs out of college. Furthermore, our parents didn't even need to go to college to find a middle-class job to raise families and buy single family homes. While I didn't go to the most affordable college I could go to, I did go to the best college I got into (a top 3 public university) and graduated with a $50k bill which I'm just now finishing paying off. I realize now that college rankings are pointless, and the quality of your education is meaningless to most employers, but the lesson came with a steep price tag. Meanwhile, my dad (a truck driver) and my mom (a manufacturing factory worker) have a 5BR/3BA house with attached garage on a double lot in an up and coming area. They bought it over 20 years ago, in their mid-30s while they were raising four kids. I couldn't even dream of buying something like that today in the worst Denver-area neighborhoods, let alone have a family big enough to fill it. Heck, my 2BR/2BA condo with no garage is worth close to $100k more than their house.
The blame always gets thrown on young generations for being too entitled for their own good, because it's much easier than confronting the problems at hand. Why worry about something that's not my problem when I can bury my head in the sand and point fingers at others. Meanwhile, I've had to jump through significantly more hoops than my parents generation have ever had to do just to live some semblance of an independent adult lifestyle. We're probably going to forego parenthood simply due to the outrageous cost of raising them and sending them off to college. Hopefully, if any of you have kids, you'll start putting money aside early enough to afford them the college education they're going to need for a job when they're adults, and live with the expectation that they may not be able to move out of your house until much later in life than you did. Because it's likely just going to get worse and worse for ensuing generations.
It's still a question of perspective though. I cannot afford my current status of living if I still lived in Boston, yet I do not go onto the Boston forum here to complain about that fact.
And if your parents bought 20 years ago in an up and coming area, it's either up and come already or it's not really up and coming and they accepted the realities of their budget and traded location for space.
In any case, the fact that a housing dollar doesn't go as far as it used to isn't exactly newsworthy. I've made my peace with living in a place where I can afford the standard of living that I want, instead of focusing on the areas I'd prefer to live in but can't afford.
We left Colorado a little over three years ago and moved to Delaware. We lived in Denver for just a few months shy of 29 years (1985-2014). We moved there when I retired from the Army. We'd been stationed there for a few years in the mid-70s and fell in love with it. We both grew up on the east coast (MD and NJ) and traveled the world in our 20s and 30s, living all over the country as well as a few years in Germany.
Our move had nothing at all to do with our life style or finances. We were perfectly happy and secure in Denver. We'd have been glad to spend the rest of our years in Colorado. All of our family, including our son and his family, are on the east coast. After our son finished his military service he settled in New Jersey where his wife is from. Had he come home to Colorado we'd still be there. The grand kids are growing up too fast, and the twice a year visits just weren't cutting it any longer. We also came to the realization in our mid-60s that there was a time coming when one of us was going to be left alone 1800 miles from our nearest family. We were well established in the community, and had lots of friends. But friends ain't family.
We're happy here and not sorry we moved. But, except for the close proximity to our family, there's nothing about our life here that's better than Colorado. We'd move back tomorrow if we found out or son was heading west.
Remember the old song lyric: "you don't know what you've got 'till it's gone"
We're happy here and not sorry we moved. But, except for the close proximity to our family, there's nothing about our life here that's better than Colorado. We'd move back tomorrow if we found out or son was heading west.
Wow, this post really spoke to me. We are going to be facing the same decision within the next year, even considering moving to your current location. We moved here for a job and will retire here in a year. All family is on the coasts. We like it here a lot but haven't convinced any of our kids to move here yet. I dread the thought of going back to humidity.
It's still a question of perspective though. I cannot afford my current status of living if I still lived in Boston, yet I do not go onto the Boston forum here to complain about that fact.
And if your parents bought 20 years ago in an up and coming area, it's either up and come already or it's not really up and coming and they accepted the realities of their budget and traded location for space.
In any case, the fact that a housing dollar doesn't go as far as it used to isn't exactly newsworthy. I've made my peace with living in a place where I can afford the standard of living that I want, instead of focusing on the areas I'd prefer to live in but can't afford.
This is a typical "I've got mine" response. Of course you don't complain, because you live in a now desirable area (Stapleton, if I recall correctly) that I can only imagine that you and your DH got in at a good time to buy. Why don't you share with us how much your home value has increased since you bought? I'm betting your tone would be much different if you were recently out of college, or even ten years out as I am, realizing how much your costly education set you back and how little it actually will afford you in the modern world when people who haven't had to do half as much as you are living like relative kings and queens. I figuratively slap myself in the head almost every day thinking about how all that hard work to be the first person to graduate from college in my family, and the associated expense was all for nothing. Hard work doesn't mean anything unless you're fortunate enough to be living with the right circumstances. That is the part that frustrates me the most; the cheese keeps getting moved despite everything that I try to do to better my standing in the world.
The problem for Denver specifically is that it's just not a good place for many people starting their young adult lives. In other large metros, there are at least affordable suburbs where young people can buy affordable "starter homes". There is really no place like that in Denver or the Front Range, because the basic "starter home" comes with a $300k price tag. Condos and townhomes are few and far in between, and are already creeping up towards that $300k mark. I know, because condos in my community are selling for over $260k now (I bought for $180k two years ago). Colorado is not even one of the most populated states (ranked 21st in the US). The region simply lacks housing inventory and the ability to support a large population due to lack of water resources. That's why it will continue to be an expensive place to live.
I'm not complaining, just sharing what I've experienced since moving here about a decade ago when I had a studio downtown for a whopping $525/mo. Young people need to be realistic about what they're coming into when they move here and think that "mountain paradise" will be affordable. It used to be. It just isn't anymore.
Last edited by Thom Hanks; 06-25-2017 at 06:43 PM..
Thom, where are the affordable suburbs of San Francisco, San Jose, L.A., DC (BTDT for 30 years), NYC.
Denver suburbs are probably more affordable than what passes for suburbs in the above areas.
In relation to what people are doing in DC and the Bay Area, commuting from COLO SPGS to Denver would cause COLO SPGS to be considered a suburb of Denver. I know people who commuted 100 miles each way into the DC area; a bunch of people had to live that far out to find affordability.
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