Any transplants considering elsewhere because front range is too crowded (Denver: crime rates, mortgage)
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Thom, where are the affordable suburbs of San Francisco, San Jose, L.A., DC (BTDT for 30 years), NYC.
Denver suburbs are probably more affordable than what passes for suburbs in the above areas.
In relation to what people are doing in DC and the Bay Area, commuting from COLO SPGS to Denver would cause COLO SPGS to be considered a suburb of Denver. I know people who commuted 100 miles each way into the DC area; a bunch of people had to live that far out to find affordability.
I've never said that Denver is the most expensive place in the US. Of course, there are other places along the coasts that are very expensive. But typically with that high COL, your salary is going to reflect the higher COL. Neither Denver or the Front Range salaries have caught up with the 10% year over year inflation of housing costs for the past decade. All you have to do is pay attention to this forum. People are moving here from high COL areas with three quarters of a million dollar housing budgets, further driving up the cost of real estate here for Joe Average. Meanwhile, my GF and I make over six figures, have no kids, and feel relatively poor here.
That said, there are plenty of lower COL areas that are desirable depending on what you're looking for and willing to put up with. Much of the Midwest states, Texas, AZ, NM, FL, NC, western WA, Boise, et al offer some great bargains for first time buyers. You're just not going to have it here unless you're making bank or inherited a nice chunk of change.
Nope love it here, I feel bad for people who just cant evolve with the times.
At what age do you think you decide to just freeze in your ways and resist change? I'm 45 and I don't seem to mind it... but everyone my age complains about Denver.
I am 46 and like you I love it. What makes me laugh is the people that come on here chirping about the impending real estate market crash and there is no way Denver can sustain the values. They are not looking at the whole picture when making statements like that. The mortgage industry isn't what it was in 2008.
I have been here for over 18 years now and I am rooted. If I was wealthy enough I would have a house here and one in San Diego. I am realist so I know that won't happen.
I have two colleagues that are in their mid 50s. One is retiring in 3 weeks and the other is going to work a few more years. The one retiring can't get out of Colorado fast enough. The other one is originally from Portugal and he loves it here and will never leave.
I think the days of big crashdowns in the Denver area may be at least lessening in severity. Maybe not gone yet. But Denver is no longer beholden to only one or two industries or a few companies. It diversified.
During the mortgage mess, Denver ended up relatively less smacked around than many other cities in the US. And it began recovering relatively early.
I remember someone telling me back in 1988 that what Denver needed was for oil and gas prices to go way up. Fortunately, other people decided that having all the economic eggs in one basket was unhealthy, in the long run.
This is a typical "I've got mine" response. Of course you don't complain, because you live in a now desirable area (Stapleton, if I recall correctly) that I can only imagine that you and your DH got in at a good time to buy. Why don't you share with us how much your home value has increased since you bought? I'm betting your tone would be much different if you were recently out of college, or even ten years out as I am, realizing how much your costly education set you back and how little it actually will afford you in the modern world when people who haven't had to do half as much as you are living like relative kings and queens. I figuratively slap myself in the head almost every day thinking about how all that hard work to be the first person to graduate from college in my family, and the associated expense was all for nothing. Hard work doesn't mean anything unless you're fortunate enough to be living with the right circumstances. That is the part that frustrates me the most; the cheese keeps getting moved despite everything that I try to do to better my standing in the world.
The problem for Denver specifically is that it's just not a good place for many people starting their young adult lives. In other large metros, there are at least affordable suburbs where young people can buy affordable "starter homes". There is really no place like that in Denver or the Front Range, because the basic "starter home" comes with a $300k price tag. Condos and townhomes are few and far in between, and are already creeping up towards that $300k mark. I know, because condos in my community are selling for over $260k now (I bought for $180k two years ago). Colorado is not even one of the most populated states (ranked 21st in the US). The region simply lacks housing inventory and the ability to support a large population due to lack of water resources. That's why it will continue to be an expensive place to live.
I'm not complaining, just sharing what I've experienced since moving here about a decade ago when I had a studio downtown for a whopping $525/mo. Young people need to be realistic about what they're coming into when they move here and think that "mountain paradise" will be affordable. It used to be. It just isn't anymore.
So I have to ask what you consider an affordable amount to spend on housing that won't leave you feeling poor. I'm not asking you to share more details but just going by what you've already posted in this thread. You paid 180,000 - even without factoring in a down payment, that's somewhere around 900 per month for a mortgage, and even adding in taxes and condo fee, it can't be more than 1500 per month, probably less. For a combined household income in excess of 100K per one of your other posts.
Trying to overestimate on the mortgage and under estimate on the income, 1500/8333 = 18% of gross income. What numbers do you think are appropriate and where you don't feel poor?
And yes, I live in Stapleton but no, I don't have a husband, I'm doing this on a single income, raising a kid (on my own, no father in the picture, no child support, etc). I used equity from a condo I bought in Boston - which was cheap back in the day but a far higher percentage of my income than 18% to cover mortgage, taxes and HOA, and I took that equity and went from there, after saving for 10 years of working and paying my own student loans to be able to afford it in the first place in a city where COL was extremely high and wages didn't keep up, certainly not mine anyway. So yeah, I've got mine, never mind that I've been working for 30 years to be able to afford it.
I've never said that Denver is the most expensive place in the US. Of course, there are other places along the coasts that are very expensive. But typically with that high COL, your salary is going to reflect the higher COL. Neither Denver or the Front Range salaries have caught up with the 10% year over year inflation of housing costs for the past decade. All you have to do is pay attention to this forum. People are moving here from high COL areas with three quarters of a million dollar housing budgets, further driving up the cost of real estate here for Joe Average. Meanwhile, my GF and I make over six figures, have no kids, and feel relatively poor here.
That said, there are plenty of lower COL areas that are desirable depending on what you're looking for and willing to put up with. Much of the Midwest states, Texas, AZ, NM, FL, NC, western WA, Boise, et al offer some great bargains for first time buyers. You're just not going to have it here unless you're making bank or inherited a nice chunk of change.
Salaries in the Bay Area are not even close to commensurate with the cost of housing.
What I find so annoying about all these threads are people seem to have loved Denver in the past, but think that others shouldn't love it enough to cause the prices to be what they are today.
So I have to ask what you consider an affordable amount to spend on housing that won't leave you feeling poor. I'm not asking you to share more details but just going by what you've already posted in this thread. You paid 180,000 - even without factoring in a down payment, that's somewhere around 900 per month for a mortgage, and even adding in taxes and condo fee, it can't be more than 1500 per month, probably less. For a combined household income in excess of 100K per one of your other posts.
Trying to overestimate on the mortgage and under estimate on the income, 1500/8333 = 18% of gross income. What numbers do you think are appropriate and where you don't feel poor?
And yes, I live in Stapleton but no, I don't have a husband, I'm doing this on a single income, raising a kid (on my own, no father in the picture, no child support, etc). I used equity from a condo I bought in Boston - which was cheap back in the day but a far higher percentage of my income than 18% to cover mortgage, taxes and HOA, and I took that equity and went from there, after saving for 10 years of working and paying my own student loans to be able to afford it in the first place in a city where COL was extremely high and wages didn't keep up, certainly not mine anyway. So yeah, I've got mine, never mind that I've been working for 30 years to be able to afford it.
I don't mind sharing some of the details. I pay around $1160/mo with HOA and escrow included. I consider the place that I have now to be affordable. My criticism is that there aren't many places like that available for purchase as housing prices continue to climb. Like I said in my previous post, places in my community are selling for over $260k now. Furthermore, even though our place is increasing in value, so has most other homes in the area. We don't want much in addition to the place we have now. We're content with condo/townhome living. We just want a garage and/or a basement for storage purposes, and possibly a tiny patio/yard area that requires minimal upkeep. But even those places seem to be getting out of reach for us as prices increase higher and higher each year. Plus, there just aren't that many condo/townhome communities in affordable areas to choose from because Denver and the Front Range seem to be averse to building such types of homes.
I just don't appreciate the "young people are entitled" mentality. For one, this forum seems to have disdain for young people, because I see people using the same insults across subs. And secondly, I know that I'm going to have to work significantly harder than previous generations just to be able to afford a similar lifestyle. So I don't like being called entitled, because I have put in a lot of work to get to this point and I still feel like I can't keep up, let alone get ahead.
Last edited by Thom Hanks; 06-25-2017 at 08:34 PM..
Salaries in the Bay Area are not even close to commensurate with the cost of housing.
What I find so annoying about all these threads are people seem to have loved Denver in the past, but think that others shouldn't love it enough to cause the prices to be what they are today.
The prices are great...when you're benefiting off of them.
If I'm a 40-something guy who bought a place here 15+ years ago, I'm certainly not going to have any complaints either. It's great when you're on the winning side of things and are able to have what you want. The people who are frustrated are the ones having to uproot their lives from a place that they probably do love. Not sure about you, but I've relocated across country a couple of times and it's not fun. And it becomes more difficult the older you get and the longer you've been living somewhere. Depending on where we live, we may not have friends or family, and we'll be looking for jobs in the area. I'm not excited about that one bit.
We're planning on moving out of state, because we can't keep up with the inflation with our nominal 1-2% COL increases each year. And for as much as I look forward to more affordable prices, I'm not jumping for joy at the idea of feeling like I'm being forced from a home that I love living in. I personally don't have any issues with the crowds or traffic, just the rapidly increasing COL.
Last edited by Thom Hanks; 06-25-2017 at 08:40 PM..
I'm not happy with the change - I've been here since the 90s and get nostalgic. I don't like the crummy apartment buildings all over, terrible traffic, and having to start my weekend hiking or skiing at 4:30am.
But the one thing I'd miss moving further away is a nice airport with cheap flights. I love traveling and am very appreciative of DIA. I can get to any medium/major city in the country in one flight, usually at a decent price. And international destinations are easily reachable with some research and planning.
The train has come in very handy as well - fortunately no breakdowns for me.
Many cities, especially small markets or medium/large cities in the midwest, don't have the variety and choice of flights that we do, and if they do they can be quite expensive if lacking competition.
The crowding, although a nuisance, isn't as much of a concern to me as COL. My GF and I have been discussing relocation to a more affordable region so that we can afford to upgrade from where we're at. Despite my condo value going up significantly over the last two years, all the other homes that we'd like to eventually upgrade to are going up just as much or more. And we're not even looking in the hip or trendy neighborhoods. We just want to find a 2-3BR/2BA townhome with a garage and/or a basement under $325k, but it's becoming more and more difficult to find something like this.
Millennials and future generations have been left with a pretty poor situation in terms of affordable places to live with access to good jobs, not just in Denver, but across the country. Combined, we make over six figures and have no kids, yet we feel like we can only afford the minimum here in Denver while also being financially responsible and not going overboard on housing costs. The cost to be a functional, contributing member of society has gone through the roof given the costs for college tuition and living expenses. Unfortunately, Denver is not an exception here. Many larger cities that have access to good jobs and amenities have priced young professionals out of the housing market.
My wife and I felt the same way about Los Angeles , except we were making 250k, which is why we moved to Denver. Everything is relative.
Salaries in the Bay Area are not even close to commensurate with the cost of housing.
What I find so annoying about all these threads are people seem to have loved Denver in the past, but think that others shouldn't love it enough to cause the prices to be what they are today.
That is happening right now in the front range, salaries are not matching up as the COL is increasing. Just because it's not affecting you, doesn't mean it's not happening.
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