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Exhibit A of what? I told you I'm not buying or selling, just trying to explain the thinking of someone out in the outer burbs and why they would reject a mass transit proposal. Are you actually interested in persuading these people or do you just want to call them stupid so you can feel superior?
OK, fair point... The post wasn't against you, but against the mentality of others you are highlighting: people aren't going to use [transit] so they don't want to pay taxes to support it mentality, which is regressive.
They did not reject it, they said they wanted a rational and thoughtful approach to it. Not just "lets throw a bunch of money at it and see what we get" I think we need a regional transit system but I have no problems with a rational approach in lieu of normal half-hazard decision making.
You are giving these Oakland lawmakers way too much credit. They are following the sadly Republican anti-transit playbook (and I'm not playing needless politics here because, if you notice, all of these 'opt out' pols have an 'R' behind their names). What does 'rational and thoughtful' really mean in this context? Funding a true regional transit authority only creates the necessary framework and foundation required for receiving funding -- state, local or federal (or even public-private funding; see Denver) -- to develop mass transit projects -- projects that are voted on and agreed upon by the regional transit board members appointed at the behest of taxpayers (by whatever appointment or voting scheme determined)... It's not like there's some big 'scary' zillion dollar boogieman/boondoggle being forced down constituents throats -- which, of course, is what these Oakland pols want people to believe. It's a false narrative designed to scare the public away from developing any rail transit project. Coddling this kind of regressive thinking is why greater Detroit remains divided and unable to fund mass transit.
That is not true and me as well as many other posters have proved that again and again. Detroit doesn't need to be more dense nor does it need absolutely horrendous traffic. I sit in enough traffic everyday. And metro Detroit is far from being the least densely populated major metro area.
Explain why much smaller metros and less density populated metros can figure it out. Explain why Cleveland, STL, SLC, Phoenix, Portland, ect all deserve mass transit in their metro areas but Detroit doesn't.
I didn't say Detroit didn't "deserve" it. I said there wasn't political will for it, as evidenced by the lack of enthusiasm by the suburban cities. What I meant is that apparently traffic to downtown isn't bad enough to convince the suburbanites not to drive and take transit. Detroit could build light rail within it's borders, there just needs to be the will to pay the tax to fund it.
Not sure what the other cities have to do with it. In those cities, the citizens voted to pay tax for transit, and they have it. If Detroit wants it, they need to do the same thing.
Every time Detroit mass transit opponents and skeptics try to explain, they never make sense.
Not opposed to mass transit in the slightest. It appears that people in the Detroit metro don't want it, because certain counties keep rejecting it. I don't wish Detroit bad transit, but you have to convince tax payers to fund it. Maybe a Detroit only measure would be more successful?
Not opposed to mass transit in the slightest. It appears that people in the Detroit metro don't want it, because certain counties keep rejecting it. I don't wish Detroit bad transit, but you have to convince tax payers to fund it. Maybe a Detroit only measure would be more successful?
Maybe that's what it will take. Although it is weird and, obviously, antithetical to true regional organization, Detroit can't keep waiting on these recalcitrant counties. Simply draft plans for rapid rail lines within the city -- yes, much more than either the Q-Line or People Mover. Say start with a light rail rapid line up the Woodward corridor ending at the Michigan State fairgrounds -- just inside the Detroit border at 8 Mile Road. Adults, after all, still often behave like children, and when folks across the border in the county see that Detroit has a shiny new toy that actually works creating density, retail concentration and overall urban desirability, they will want one too... and maybe, finally, things will get going.
OK, fair point... The post wasn't against you, but against the mentality of others you are highlighting: people aren't going to use [transit] so they don't want to pay taxes to support it mentality, which is regressive.
Why would someone living in Metro Detroit vote to tax themselves to fund more empty buses? It doesn't make sense. The buses will clog up existing traffic, and barely carry anyone. I've experienced this myself, sitting on 14 Mile Road around Woodward, while an empty bus ahead of me slows everyone down.
And basically 95% of the region is totally unsuitable for any type of transit. Why would someone in, say Northville Township, or Lyon Township, vote to make themselves poorer to create some additional bureaucracy to run more empty buses 30 miles away?
IMO, most people who support this tax either don't own homes worth much, or are young non-homeowers who visited NYC or Paris once, and think Detroit will magically transform if we tax ourselves to death building transit infrastructure. Because the zoo tax, the museum tax, and the metroparks tax aren't quite enough, and oh, wait, everyone with a 401k is 15-20% poorer than a week ago, but let's just pile on another tax. And I'm a Dem, BTW.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree we need a regional transit system. I voted in support of the last one.
However, I'm not convinced, like others say, that throwing a pile of money at an issue that is not well defined with unclear objectives, with existing bureaucracies that have failed is the right approach.
I say this based on the sentiment of many within the region, particularly from anywhere outside the CoD or inner ring suburbs.
SMART and DDOT have failed at their objective. Simply running empty busses down the same corridors stuck in the same traffic isn't necessarily the answer.
The RTA needs to be clear in what the transit gaps they are attempting to address with clear plans of how they are going to spend the money to change the status quo.
The biggest problem we have in this region is how decentralized our job centers are within the region, particularly the ones that need transit versus where people are going to continue to use personal automobiles.
This region has taxation fatigue. Every municipality is continually trying to raise more funding through millage. Right or wrong, the voter fatigue is real. Transit is something that many are skeptical of throwing more money at since everyone sees how SMART, DDOT, Peoplemover, Qline are all well below expectations.
Also simply just property taxes shouldn't be the only reason. Some combination of property, sales, and hotel/rental car surcharges are likely a better approach than simply property taxes which disproportionately impact those who are least likely to benefit from any transit solution.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree we need a regional transit system. I voted in support of the last one.
However, I'm not convinced, like others say, that throwing a pile of money at an issue that is not well defined with unclear objectives, with existing bureaucracies that have failed is the right approach.
I say this based on the sentiment of many within the region, particularly from anywhere outside the CoD or inner ring suburbs.
SMART and DDOT have failed at their objective. Simply running empty busses down the same corridors stuck in the same traffic isn't necessarily the answer.
The RTA needs to be clear in what the transit gaps they are attempting to address with clear plans of how they are going to spend the money to change the status quo.
The biggest problem we have in this region is how decentralized our job centers are within the region, particularly the ones that need transit versus where people are going to continue to use personal automobiles.
This region has taxation fatigue. Every municipality is continually trying to raise more funding through millage. Right or wrong, the voter fatigue is real. Transit is something that many are skeptical of throwing more money at since everyone sees how SMART, DDOT, Peoplemover, Qline are all well below expectations.
Also simply just property taxes shouldn't be the only reason. Some combination of property, sales, and hotel/rental car surcharges are likely a better approach than simply property taxes which disproportionately impact those who are least likely to benefit from any transit solution.
Actually I do have empathy for the fact that, over the years, there have been a bunch of really promising mass transit plans in Detroit pushed forward by officials that have nowhere (ie, where's the Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter rail line that's been talked about recently? I had read that refurbished bi-level rail coaches had been secured; this would be a nice start) ... to the point where, I can understand, on a level, why local residents could become skeptical of shelling out anymore tax dollars to them -- pols and planners who either trot out half-baked/half-azz plans and/or who are not committed to seeing any worthwhile plans through... It takes determination and focus, and I understand Detroit has a nasty history of well financed and organized anti-transit interests -- truth is, all cities have these people/groups -- yes, in Detroit, they tend to be stronger, but you've got to find a way to defeat them.
Rail transit -- in this case, we're talking about mostly grade-separated (tunnel, elevated, open cut, in RR or freeway medians/corridors, etc) rapid transit, and not the M-1/Q-Line touristy streetcar type operations... These days, cities with under 1 million city proper population are almost exclusively building light rail -- the last new heavy rail was Los Angeles in 1993 -- and it's limited to a 2 branch 18-odd mile operation which, however, is currently being greatly expanded to the west under busy Wilshire Blvd out to UCLA/Westwood. NOTE: Denver just recently opened the first legs of the first all-new electric commuter rail since the 1930s Depression, which is heavy rail, technically, but not in the traditional high-frequency subway mode...
Point being, rapid rail is wildly expensive -- always the most expensive public works project in any city's history, by far. But the long-term bennies always outweigh the short-term expense and pain -- even in places like Cleveland, where rail transit carries less people and has had less impact -- at least, in recent decades (don't forget Tower City, the amazingly huge/still growing downtown city-within-a-city complex), Shaker Square (shopping/apts) and the entire suburb of Shaker Heights were the direct result of the original Rapid line), but Cleveland, overall, is much better for having transit than not, and recently serious TOD is getting around rail stations once again ... finally!
For >1M, moderate density cities like Detroit, it takes some combination of political will ... and luck. But obviously LRT is being built in such cities: St. Louis, Minneapolis, Baltimore (HRT and LRT) Denver, Dallas, Seattle, etc... Often you can point to hero politicians who get these systems built... ie the late William Donald Schaefer, in Baltimore, John Hickenlooper, in Denver (both mayors-turned-governors)... Nashville came close when transit hero Mayor Megan Barry pushed Lets Move, which included a 26 mile LRT including a downtown bus and subway tunnel to avoid congestion under narrow/tight streets... But unfortunately Barry got caught up in scandal, leaving office just months before the Lets Move vote; Koch Brother anti-tax/anti-transit operatives moved in, and the plans died badly at the polls...
The moral of the story: it ain't easy, but what worthwhile things in life are? Detroit is begging for transit visionaries and leaders of the type noted above; Detroit needs a mass transit hero because it currently has fallen embarrassingly behind other cities that are much better off having found such individuals and built worthy rail transit infrastructure.
Not sure what the other cities have to do with it. In those cities, the citizens voted to pay tax for transit, and they have it. If Detroit wants it, they need to do the same thing.
Read your own words from your first post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakebarnes
Detroit isn't there yet - things need to be more dense and traffic has to be bad. Also, without a centralized major job center, it's hard to get people commuting to work. If downtown Detroit continues on it's upward swing, transit to downtown Detroit from the suburbs will become more in demand.
You said that prerequisites for rapid transit is a dense core, centralized major job center, and bad traffic. I pointed out that some cities that have built rapid transit lines over the past 10-30 years, like Phoenix, and Salt Lake City and Minneapolis/St. Paul and St. Louis aren't known for having those things.
Also simply just property taxes shouldn't be the only reason. Some combination of property, sales, and hotel/rental car surcharges are likely a better approach than simply property taxes which disproportionately impact those who are least likely to benefit from any transit solution.
I already stated this. I guess you ignored or overlooked my response to your first post in this thread:
-I also determined that of the metro areas that provide some sort of rapid transit, only ONE metro area in the country RELIES on property taxes for local funding - Indianapolis, which 6 months ago started a BRT Line.
-Detroit needs to consolidate into one authority and then we need to get the legislature to pass an amendment allowing the authority to take local sales tax increases to the vote of the people. In California, at least 62% of the people have to vote in favor in order to get a transit tax passed.
-Local sales tax will allow us to pass off transit funding to visiting businessmen, tourists, truck drivers passing through, and Canadian workers/shoppers from Windsor/Essex. Renters, property owners, and visitors all share in the funding.
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