Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I was looking for a good forum to have this discussion. I see possible long term issues for some home owners. I got struck down at other forums when I started a discussion, contractor talk being one. No one wants to talk about it. Here in NWA perhaps most places Hardie Board is widely being used. A course of brick up to the 1st floor then zip board and HB siding on top of that.
Around NWA there is so much work that subs are springing up many not even knowing how to correctly install the product. The most common mistakes are all flashing must be behind the moisture barrier, The product must be 1/4+ above the flashing, the flashing must be pitched and not caulked, all cuts must be painted or sealed in so way. There are many more violations but unless the home owner watched every step of the way they will never know.
This is not what real-estate inspector checks. I could not find one that would give me a inspection of just the HB. I tried to get the inspector I used for the closing and he was only interested in doing a re inspection covering the same issues covered prior to closing. The city inspector doesn't care so much about quality and they don't even know the HB guidelines.
Our house was particularly bad in many ways. The studs were bad many were bowed. The 2x6 used in to frame the roof were a bunch of little pieces finger jointed together. The city says it's "rated" lumber so probably it will hold. The builder got cheap during covid and used a cheaper moisture barrier https://barricadebp.com/structural-sheathing
Its little more than card board. Arguably 1/8 masonite. Using this product it doubles down on the guideline saying "the product must be nailed into wood". When the 16" centers no longer lined up the the sub just kept installing nailing into card board. So the product stated falling off the houses, ours was one. Yes I took step to lawyer up but when I got the builder to agree to reside around all the doors and windows exposed to weather and the bought a case of zip tape and I made sure every area removed was sealed up. The sub said it was not necessary but I did the taping. We discovered horrible issues when they removed the siding. I had to be involved because in each issue the sub would have found an easier way. I can explain further if anyone is interested. I have lots of pictures. We were also forced into a Color match prefinished product. In a way lucky me otherwise it would have been caulked and would have been years before I discovered the mistakes.
I even got a HB rep involved because I demanded that the builder get one because I could visibly see so many errors. I later found out that he took heat from his boss. Not because the product was allowed to be installed wrong. He took heat for even getting involved. Apparently it's not their problem if it's installed incorrectly.
I suspect many houses are done poorly all of them in our community . The home owner has to get up on a ladder and physically check every board. I found many that weren't even nailed fully. One had one nail in a 5ft board. The gun runs out of nails and there's not enough time to go back and check how long you've been shooting blanks. On the horizontal trim boards they made no attempts to even hit the studs, so because of the moisture barrier it was mostly nailed in to card board.
After they were all done using OSI quadmax caulk I caulked the entire house in, nearly 3 cases of caulk. Yes I could have tried to force the builder into it even if I was able nobody would have done the job I did. I got damn good at tooling it with soapy water, something that the installers have no clue about. A painter uses latex painters caulk not this stuff. This stuff is tougher to make it look nice, again I have lots of pictures.
Unfortunately most all of what you’ve stated regarding workmanship, best building practices and following manufacturers recommended procedures, is a universal problem today, at least in this country.
There appears to be a supply and demand issue and most all contractors are overbooked and have an abundance of work. I’ve been speaking with several homeowners who have had problems just getting quotes for projects and when they do receive an estimate, the numbers are extremely high, without an itemized breakdown along with long lead times before being able to start work.
Most all contractors are having issues finding qualified people to work while many of them hire “lumpers” who are contractors who will install products, such as drywall, siding, roofing, framing, etc
based on a square foot price or unit cost, so the profit is governed by the speed of the workers. Sub contracting or lumping out work is a common practice for builders or general contractors.
Just as the contractors have more work than they can deal with, the same overburden is felt by the building departments and their inspectors, code compliant officials or AHJ, are overwhelmed so inspections are usually rushed in order to keep up with the demand. They are probably not able to spend enough time on site to carefully take in all that’s going on.
Most people just buy a newly constructed house in a housing development, it’s the higher end homes that get built properly due to good plans & specifications that have been accurately checked & marked up and then a construction manager is hired to inspect the work and deal with the builder on a daily basis.
Your problem is not unique, it’s very prevalent today and as previously mentioned, finding a contractor with a good reputation who can be trusted along with a knowledgeable person who could act as the owners representative would be a good start to ensuring the project is properly constructed.
And, before construction even begins, what about the plans and specifications? They should be examined by a qualified person to ensure they are detailed and clearly specify all materials, fixtures, hardware, etc since these documents become part of the legal contract. If the plans and specifications are ambiguous or not detailed, the home owner looses right from the get go and the builder has a the upper hand if legal recourse is taken. There is much to consider and I’ve heard of many horror stories regarding issues post construction.
I do have a question though. Did you have phase inspections performed by your own Inspector during the build or only a final before closing?
Thanks again for trying to reply to all my points scattered they may be. I'll try to follow up on your reply's.
Glad you pointed out that Contractor talk striking me down. They did reply explaining their purpose and my inquiry was outside the scope of their mission. I only posted it because I have had difficulty finding a forum to knowledgeable feedback.
Just as @Rickcin posted adding to the issue we bought in the worst of times. in a since. The GC sold a bunch of homes most had bought down their interest rates so the builder had a hard deadline that they kept pushing back. In the end all the homes were closed incomplete. Lots of stuff to finish. Problems big and small. So many immigrants as it turns out are buy/starting these businesses. As Rickcin pointed out because they were swamped the subcontractor that was doing all the homes subbed out the install of our house. This is the worst possible of scenarios. If the sub points out problems they are loosing money, so they bury it.
Most homes use 1/2 inch osb/zip board and when there are framing issues at the very least the siding is nailed into 1/2 inch. Not the case for our house. The builder and all involved could see these issue but the builder tried to sell me on some hair-brained idea that the subcontractor could "loosen up" the siding slip out the bad flashing, cut the board and batten panels above the windows and doors 1/4 inch higher then slip new flashing in and tighten it all back up. I knew better and so did the HB rep standing right their while this was proposed. Only after I forced the entire group to watch a presentation I made, that I tried to show the builder in his office. He refused to see saying none of his computers had usb inputs. So they all saw drawings off Hardie Board's website showing how the product should be installed and picture after picture of how horribly it was actually installed. Only then reluctantly did the builder agree to replace with new product around all the doors and windows. They even had to replace all the product around two dormers because not only were the windows flashed wrong the product was less than 1 inch above the roof. This is a very common mistake we are in a HZ10 area requiring 1inch of space. Less than 100 miles north of us it's HZ5 and that requires 2 inches.
As you can see once I get started the details are overwhelming!!
I guess what I'm hoping to achieve from posting here is knowledgeable person's will be able to tell me that the steps I made and that I continue to monitor throughout the years will insure that this house will out live me.
I ran out of time for this post but here are a couple of pictures. Also my hope here is to make other folks more knowledgeable to spot these defect in their own homes and force the contractors to fix them.
Unfortunately many are afraid of getting caught up in a litigation. Under your circumstances it is easy to tell that this is a dispute happening. However there is nothing to be concerned about if they know what they are doing.
You are right and the a Lawyers I spoke with helped me understand the hurdle I would need to get over if I did take the builder to court. Here in Arkansas perhaps most places. The 2 ways you can take the contractor to court and win one unless you identified the issue(s) before closing and wrote them down as needing repairs the standard language in the closing (small print) you signed off on everything being good prior to closing. The 2nd way goes beyond the warranty period based on work done below industry standards. You can force the builder to fix these issues up to 5 years after closing. The catch is you have to give the builder the opportunity to fix it. He will just force the same sub to do the work for free. he's out the material cost. So you have to weigh the options.
These products have been around for awhile now. If properly installed they can provide the moisture and air barrier required by the Building Codes. As for their structural claims the International Code Council has changed the certification requirements over the years from the ICC certifying the materials to any "approved" certification operation approving these materials. If you read the Technical Evaluation Reports on that page these were certified by an engineering firm. I am certainly not saying that I feel comfortable with using them in a structural application but they are approved for that.
And they were not installed properly. It's hard to say if this product will fail causing moisture issues down the road like mold. We are aware of high humidity in the house and presently use a dehumidifier in the master bath to help keep the humidity below 60%.
Before they did the siding I could see the sheeting was not nailed fully and I started picking the nails up and nailed it myself before the siding guys showed up. They also used open cell spray foam insulation. I wanted it nailed to the studs before they sprayed the insulation.
I knew everything had gone foobar shortly after the house was framed. Rather than walking away and loosing the down payment I thought could fix things. To a greater degree I did.
One of the 1st issues I fixed myself there was a lot of horizontal 2x4s notched into the stud walls half way up. This was the builders method to straighten the studs. The inspector failed it but the builder produced a paper from a engineering firm saying this is acceptable. The carpenters were suppose to drop back and shim above and below all the notches. Well I did it. I showed up early in the morning. Not only did I shim the gap. I glued the S*** out of it using PL panel glue. One of my carpenter buddies thought the horizontal boards might even make the wall stronger.
Thanks again for trying to reply to all my points scattered they may be. I'll try to follow up on your reply's.
Glad you pointed out that Contractor talk striking me down. They did reply explaining their purpose and my inquiry was outside the scope of their mission. I only posted it because I have had difficulty finding a forum to knowledgeable feedback.
It would seem to me that any BB with that type of name would want to answer questions. Of course don't expect them to hammer bad contractors as they don't want to be hammered themselves when their time comes.
Just as @Rickcin posted adding to the issue we bought in the worst of times. in a since. The GC sold a bunch of homes most had bought down their interest rates so the builder had a hard deadline that they kept pushing back. In the end all the homes were closed incomplete. Lots of stuff to finish. Problems big and small.
For the benefit of others reading it is important that when you go to closing if issues have not been addressed that they be added as exceptions to closing so they are recorded and the Builder now has no reason to say they were not aware of them.
Can't say about other States (you should check your State's laws) but here in Texas even on new homes Texas recognizes the "As Is" clause during closing. You will most likely find that in your contracts/paperwork at closing. Basically as the Buyer you will agree to accept the condition of the home "As Is" regardless if there are still lingering and known issues with it. An honest Builder will still correct issues after closing even if not marked as exceptions to closing. However no matter how honest a Builder may seem you are providing them an "Out" if they later choose not to repair these issues.
So many immigrants as it turns out are buy/starting these businesses.
Yes they are but I have seen their work and where there are many problem contractors there are also some very talented and good ones as well. For example some of the most awesome masonry work I have seen are by immigrants. Many tend to pay attention to detail and the owners of the sub company pay attention to their workers work product.
As Rickcin pointed out because they were swamped the subcontractor that was doing all the homes subbed out the install of our house. This is the worst possible of scenarios. If the sub points out problems they are loosing money, so they bury it.
This goes back to the saying "The Fox Guarding The Hen House!". Any worthwhile Builder would not allow that to occur. If they are not able to QC their own homes, and by extension the subcontractors' work, they really should not be in the business of building.
Most homes use 1/2 inch osb/zip board and when there are framing issues at the very least the siding is nailed into 1/2 inch. Not the case for our house. The builder and all involved could see these issue but the builder tried to sell me on some hair-brained idea that the subcontractor could "loosen up" the siding slip out the bad flashing, cut the board and batten panels above the windows and doors 1/4 inch higher then slip new flashing in and tighten it all back up. I knew better and so did the HB rep standing right their while this was proposed. Only after I forced the entire group to watch a presentation I made, that I tried to show the builder in his office. He refused to see saying none of his computers had usb inputs. So they all saw drawings off Hardie Board's website showing how the product should be installed and picture after picture of how horribly it was actually installed. Only then reluctantly did the builder agree to replace with new product around all the doors and windows. They even had to replace all the product around two dormers because not only were the windows flashed wrong the product was less than 1 inch above the roof. This is a very common mistake we are in a HZ10 area requiring 1inch of space. Less than 100 miles north of us it's HZ5 and that requires 2 inches.
As you can see once I get started the details are overwhelming!!
I guess what I'm hoping to achieve from posting here is knowledgeable person's will be able to tell me that the steps I made and that I continue to monitor throughout the years will insure that this house will out live me.
Unfortunately I do not think anywhere here has a crystal ball to go into the future. All we can do as homeowners is to monitor the home for possible signs of issues, which we should be doing anyhow, and deal with them when they occur. For monitoring the home I try to tell clients they need to become aware of the home by regularly scanning it with the eyes for awhile after taking possession. After a period of time (different for each person) they are able to walk through their house during normal activities and see issues occurring. However nobody should become obsessed with it as that does ruin the ownership experience.
I ran out of time for this post but here are a couple of pictures. Also my hope here is to make other folks more knowledgeable to spot these defect in their own homes and force the contractors to fix them.
Responses in blue above.
One of the largest issues I encounter on homes, even new homes that I mostly inspect now, are exterior claddings, flashings and sealants. These are the first line of defense for water penetrations and sem to be overlooked by Builders so many times. The water resistive barriers and flashings tapes on the sheathings are a second line of defense as we hope the first is never penetrated. But we do not know how those were installed and as such the exterior components need to be correct.
A good explanation of the importance of these is as follows which I provide to clients as well. Punch a large hole in the exterior claddings and have a heavy rain. If the secondary weather resistive barrier is not properly constructed then water leakage on the interior will be seen fairly quickly. You fix the exterior issue and possible some underlying issues if materials are removed for repair and then move on.
However if you have all these smaller improperly flashed and sealed exterior cladding issues then moisture is allowed to penetrate slowly. It can take a long time for the water to penetrate to the interior where it is seen. Until that happens a lot of damage is occurring to the exterior claddings, sheathings, framing, insulation, etc. When the penetrations finally are manifested the damage tends to be significant.
You are right and the a Lawyers I spoke with helped me understand the hurdle I would need to get over if I did take the builder to court. Here in Arkansas perhaps most places. The 2 ways you can take the contractor to court and win one unless you identified the issue(s) before closing and wrote them down as needing repairs the standard language in the closing (small print) you signed off on everything being good prior to closing.
That is the "As Is" clause I spoke of in my last post. Again for other readers out there you need to make sure you know what you are getting when building a home. If you understand building and can do your own inspections and want to then do so. If you don't and/or want another set of eyes then make sure you hire your own Inspector.
The 2nd way goes beyond the warranty period based on work done below industry standards. You can force the builder to fix these issues up to 5 years after closing. The catch is you have to give the builder the opportunity to fix it. He will just force the same sub to do the work for free. he's out the material cost. So you have to weigh the options.
There is even a problem associated with this avenue or approach. First you have to be able to prove it was substandard work. If it is on the surface and you can easily get at it then that isn't very difficult. However if it is an underlying problem it can take a whole lot of money to find the issues that are well covered over.
Another issue is the "Homeowner required maintenance" angle. Homeowners will have typical responsibilities such as maintaining exterior sealants, paints, etc. These are spelled out in typical Builder warranty documents. Add to that the "As Is" clause and you have additional "Outs" for Builders who perform substandard work. Take for instance the exterior sealant issues. Sealants when properly installed can last a long time. However even if they were not installed properly it becomes the owners responsibility to maintain. Any issues that arise from not repairing bad Builder work can potentially be passed off on the homeowner down the line.
And they were not installed properly. It's hard to say if this product will fail causing moisture issues down the road like mold. We are aware of high humidity in the house and presently use a dehumidifier in the master bath to help keep the humidity below 60%.
Not sure which "product" you are speaking of. In any case if the exterior claddings are properly installed and maintained then the underlying bad sheathing issues may never become a problem as far as mold or other issues are concerned. The concept is to keep the water out at the first line (exterior claddings, flashings, and sealants) and proper installation of the sidings can allow moisture behind to dry out hopefully before it becomes an issue.
Before they did the siding I could see the sheeting was not nailed fully and I started picking the nails up and nailed it myself before the siding guys showed up.
Home Buyers should be very careful about this approach. First off you open yourself up to claims from the Builder that you were a cause of problems later down the road by taking these actions whether they were right or wrong. Secondly the Builder may claim the Buyer is interfering with the Build. There may be contract provisions for this that the Builder can exercise and really cause a Buyer grief.
As much of a PITA that it may be Buyers need to take the following actions if they are seeing issues during their build. A house is the biggest and most long term expense a Buyer can make!
Before the build even starts Buyers should have an Attorney review their contracts so they can understand their rights and what their actions may cause down the road. Have the Attorney on the ready for further consultations if the build appears to be going South. The Attorney can advise of what steps to take to help ensure your rights and contractual rights are maintained.
Document everything! Take pictures from every angle useful, document tall communications with the Builder, document all communications with anyone else involved with the build i.e. the AHJ.
Immediately bring up the issues found with the Builder and obtain documented responses from them.
If the Builder becomes a problem and you know they are performing sub-standard building then contact the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction, Building Inspections Department) to get them involved before any sub-standard work is covered over.
They also used open cell spray foam insulation. I wanted it nailed to the studs before they sprayed the insulation.
I knew everything had gone foobar shortly after the house was framed. Rather than walking away and loosing the down payment I thought could fix things. To a greater degree I did.
One of the 1st issues I fixed myself there was a lot of horizontal 2x4s notched into the stud walls half way up. This was the builders method to straighten the studs. The inspector failed it but the builder produced a paper from a engineering firm saying this is acceptable. The carpenters were suppose to drop back and shim above and below all the notches. Well I did it. I showed up early in the morning. Not only did I shim the gap. I glued the S*** out of it using PL panel glue. One of my carpenter buddies thought the horizontal boards might even make the wall stronger.
Hopefully the "paper from a engineering firm saying this is acceptable" was a stamped by the Engineer report that they have reviewed it and found it to be acceptable?
For the benefit of other Buyers out there. If a Builder ever tells you that their Engineer "said it was OK" you should demand from the Builder a report from the Engineer, stamped with the Engineer's stamp, stating that the issue (specifically described) was acceptable and/or acceptably corrected. If they actually provide that the Engineer is putting their license on the line approving it. Just make sure it is not some generic "I reviewed the framing and all is OK" type letter. Make sure your concerns are specified in that letter. From there you move on as the Engineer should know what they are doing.
Thanks for all the good advice. I've liked your's and everyone else's posts to the limit.
On another legal issue we homeowners have right now. A huge number of the water heaters have been defective. They were and did replace dozens under warranty.
I just got a text from the plumber and we are 1 of 4 he plans to replace, under warranty. He is getting left with the labor cost. Apparently there was a design flaw and after 1000s were installed they discovered the problem. Sounds like he has a court case against the manufacturer. More than we do against the builder.
Presumably if the builder doesn't do the installation according to the instructions, then the warranty will be voided. What sorts of things are they doing wrong? And where is the inspector?
Just to bounce back on this question. All of the builders are doing the flashing wrong! I don't know for sure if this will turn into a problem down the line. The house being built nextdoor by completely different contractors. Again they leave no 1/4 inch gap and the painter caulks the flashing. The instructions clearly state otherwise. Later I can post a screenshot of the PDF.
A picture of the house nextdoor and one of mine, a work in progress of a window they redid showing how the flashing should look. After caulking I am following back and painting all the caulk and ugly spots. So far I'm very happy with how it looks.
Also all the contractors are not zip taping above the flashing pretty much everywhere, doors, windows and flashing at the bottom above the brick. Such a small easy step which puts the flashing behind the moisture barrier also stated in the Hardie Bible. No inspector ever checks these things.
Here are the most basic of flashing requirements. I'm telling you few of these are followed. My best guess is if you ever try to get a warranty you will up against these install errors. I'm fully aware I don't have a colormatch warranty because I caulked and painted over it. I'm convinced I would have had much bigger issues had I not sealed it up.
As far as the flashing goes. You tell me what happens when it's not behind the moisture barrier as is currently being done everywhere? Maybe in normal conditions nothing. What happens when you get your house power washed and water goes everywhere up into the soffits and runs down behind the sheeting and ends up above a window, like my neighbors will have, because it's caulked nowhere to go. Just asking? I can go on with dozens of examples on every house I've looked at.
I'm really surprised that I've gotten no comments to clear guideline infractions. Am I chicken little here? Maybe so or do other folks have their heads buried in the sand? Around here there is a pretty big business for water/mold mitigation. Post pictures of your house or one you may have worked on and I'll tell you if it's none right and show the page from the Hardie bible to back it up.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
