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Old 06-29-2020, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Lahaina, Hi.
6,384 posts, read 4,824,868 times
Reputation: 11326

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
There were numerous credible sources for the article, as cited in the bibliography of sources with which you were provided. These sources were referenced for the article in question. What more do you want? What is your source for refuting the statements made, other than: "I never heard that before"?
Less hostility would be nice.

 
Old 06-29-2020, 10:28 PM
 
4,143 posts, read 1,870,880 times
Reputation: 5776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuremauian View Post
Less hostility would be nice.
Asking you "What more do you want?" is hostile? Particularly when the information and sources given to you apparently were not enough for you?

Please don't take the debate to a personal level. Discuss the topic -- not personalities.

Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 06-29-2020 at 10:43 PM..
 
Old 06-29-2020, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Lahaina, Hi.
6,384 posts, read 4,824,868 times
Reputation: 11326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel NewYork View Post
Asking you "What more do you want?" is hostile? Particularly when the information and sources given to you apparently were not enough for you?

Please don't take the debate to a personal level. Discuss the topic -- not personalities.
Well, we agree on one thing! Have a nice day!
 
Old 06-29-2020, 11:22 PM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,070 posts, read 10,729,796 times
Reputation: 31430
Columbus is so shrouded in myth and hearsay and allegations that there is reason to doubt much of what is said or written after 500 years. We are not even sure of his family background or where he is buried. Because we know so little he is a convenient target...but the criticism might be deserved at some level. In his day there was a great deal of animosity and ill will connected to him by those associated with the voyages and early settlements because he was not Spanish.

We know he was a seaman and and navigator experienced on voyages along the coast of Africa and to northern Europe. He managed to talk himself into a position as the 'admiral' of a small group of three ships in search of a western route to Asia. He managed to sail to the New World and came to understand the currents and winds that made such voyages possible. He did not know what he found -- nothing like what he expected. He established a fort, La Navidad, on Hispaniola and left a small group of crew members there when he returned to Spain in his two remaining ships...the first to make the round trip. In his absence things went horribly wrong at La Navidad. The place was destroyed and there were no survivors when he returned in 1493. He was a better sailor than he was an administrator and was not liked by the Spanish who considered him a foreigner. He was absent from the second settlement (La Isabella) on exploration trips for weeks at a time leaving others in charge. The Spanish settlers were not interested in being kind to the Indians whether Columbus was or not. The Indians suffered catastrophic losses from disease and poor treatment. Columbus executed some of his own people for their actions. That was the basis for charges brought against him later. He also killed and mistreated the local Indians who became hostile and took some as slaves back to Spain. He was no angel or saint but certainly not as bad as what came after him.

His name is used or associated with so many places that having actual statues seems redundant. There is probably no historical figure that is subjected to the extremes of hatred and reverence after so many years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...e28_story.html

Myth vs Facts – The Truth About Columbus
 
Old 06-29-2020, 11:40 PM
 
Location: Lahaina, Hi.
6,384 posts, read 4,824,868 times
Reputation: 11326
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
Columbus is so shrouded in myth and hearsay and allegations that there is reason to doubt much of what is said or written after 500 years. We are not even sure of his family background or where he is buried. Because we know so little he is a convenient target...but the criticism might be deserved at some level. In his day there was a great deal of animosity and ill will connected to him by those associated with the voyages and early settlements because he was not Spanish.

His name is used or associated with so many places that having actual statues seems redundant. There is probably no historical figure that is subjected to the extremes of hatred and reverence after so many years.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...e28_story.html

Myth vs Facts – The Truth About Columbus
Your links provide some compelling evidence in support of Columbus!

Others on this thread vehemently disagree and think he was a monster.

Who to believe? Who to believe indeed?

Popcorn anyone?
 
Old 06-30-2020, 03:39 AM
 
3,782 posts, read 4,245,540 times
Reputation: 7892
If removed by vote of the people where they are situated, I don't care. The guy didn't discover North American and still wonder why we celebrate CC day.

However, a mob should not be allowed to tear down ANY statute; regardless of affiliation. That is mob rule and when the mob rules, justice is not given to the people.
 
Old 06-30-2020, 04:27 AM
 
Location: Southern NC
2,203 posts, read 5,083,430 times
Reputation: 3835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuremauian View Post
Tearing down statues is one more way liberals tell conservatives that they no longer have power in America, and that liberals are now "in charge".

Conservatives still have control over much of the wealth and power in this country, so for liberals, statue destruction is a hollow victory.

Protestors get tired and go home. Entrenched power (and money) stands strong with or without statues.
Sure, you can call it a liberal, conservative thing, but in reality, it's showing racists they no longer have any power in America. It seems being a Liberal is being on the right side of history.
 
Old 06-30-2020, 07:31 AM
 
18,126 posts, read 25,269,498 times
Reputation: 16832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futuremauian View Post
Tearing down statues is one more way liberals tell conservatives that they no longer have power in America, and that liberals are now "in charge".
Your comment proves that conservatives constantly rewrite history and support the oppresive ways of the past
 
Old 06-30-2020, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
38,859 posts, read 25,525,338 times
Reputation: 24780
Lightbulb Christopher Columbus statues: keep them up or take them down?

His statues belong in Italy, for the most part.

I'm OK with the impressive memorial in Barcelona.

But ol' Chris has a reputation in the New World that could best be described as that "not so fresh feeling."

Maybe we could ship his US statues to Italy, if they pay the postage.

Besides, he never set foot in the USA.

 
Old 06-30-2020, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,270,853 times
Reputation: 32910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
Please stop and think rationally. This is mindless destruction of symbols, not actual war against evil. Will destroying statues have any effect whatsoever on the continuing trafficking and abuse of sex slaves in the USA? Not as long as wealthy and powerful people are benefitting from it. And those people come in all skin colors.

Has anyone here stopped to wonder why most of the deaths of minorities by police have been occurring in cities already run by liberal politics? Often minorities are well entrenched in the politics and management of the cities already. Doesn't that seem like maybe, just maybe, the reasons offered for the necessity of rioting might be red herrings?

Just who are these New Bosses everyone is so anxious to enthrone? Does anyone really know? Is a healthy, creative and nurturing spirit of leadership being born? Or something else?
1. For some, the removal of statues may be "mindless destruction of symbols". For others -- as demonstrated by this thread -- it is something well thought out.

2. The deaths of minorities by police in the South...is the South some hotbed of liberal thinking that we have not previously recognized?
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