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Feminism is struggling to find it's place since it's so poorly defined... just like defining what a woman is. By definition I'm a feminist since I'm a strong advocate for women.
The problem with the narrative women have been fed is that it deleted the old way but didn’t replace it with anything new. It conveniently left out the details about how women are supposed to live their lives instead.
Wow. That is so wrong.
The main point of feminism is that no longer is society going to define (and enforce) "how women are supposed to live their lives".
If you don't understand that, then you don't know anything about feminism.
When I think of the times before feminism, when women couldn't get a credit card without her husband's permission, or women couldn't get a loan, I think of those as the far off old times. But I left home in 1974 and realize now that I just missed a lot of those restrictions. If things hadn't changed when they did, I would have had a far harder time of supporting myself when I left home.
I sometimes think my parents failed me. They were sure I was going to grow up, get married, and have kids. There was no need to teach me self reliance, no need to teach me about finances, no need to teach me how to drive. But then my mom didn't teach me to cook, clean, or run a household either, so...
When I was in high school I was forced into home ec, which I hated. When I was in juvenile lockup, I pushed to take woodworking and was the first girl to do that. When I realized in the 80s I never wanted kids, i was practically shunned by my coworkers when they found out.
For all that it's so hard to define feminism, I'm very, very grateful for it. I think if I had been a SAHM with the hubby and the house in the suburbs, my kids would be abused and taken away and I'd be in jail. I don't think I could have handled it. I don't know how unhappy women did handle it before there were other options.
But one thing occurs to me. Feminism wasn't once and done. It changes forms, adapts, and moves on. Whatever it was in the 60s and 70s, it's different now but I think still very supporting of women. I'm not sure it's something that gives to women as much as it's something women take from whatever it is they need in life. And maybe that's the way it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike from back east
No, feminism has not failed women, or the nation. The benefits are plainly obvious when we see millions of women reaching high levels of personal growth and contributions to our society. In the past, half the brainpower of our nation was kept in the background; we've unleashed that with the changes we've made.
Where we are failing is not unshackling boys and men from their traditional roles; men keep trying to maintain the old male-dominated thinking which shows up too often as sexist, misogynist behaviors. These are some of the earmarks of an us vs them gender dynamic which implies one has to lose for one to win, which certainly is not the case. We need both genders to succeed royally, not at the expense of the other, but as a collaborative whole.
Thanks for popping in, Mike. What you posted is profound.
It almost sounds like you're pushing for male feminism - I'm not even sure what the word or phrase for that would be. But it sounds intriguing. Something to free men rather than try to keep them in their traditional roles.
Maybe we should talk about whether or not feminism failed men. Or why have some men adapted to independent women so well and others not at all? I don't think it's entirely because of their ages and the way they were brought up.
Long answer: What a strange article. Written by Phyllis Schlafly’s niece, no less. Feminism has failed young women because it didn’t live up to a bunch of straw man talking points? What exactly does author believe successful feminism looks like: having it all, but with no tradeoffs or opportunity costs? That doesn’t exist for grownups of any sex or gender.
Short answer: No. Feminism still has work to do (especially with respect to intersectionality), but for broad strokes purposes, the goal of feminism is to achieve social, legal, and economic equality between the sexes. That is a moving target, so I’m not sure the work will ever be done.
The problem with the narrative women have been fed is that it deleted the old way but didn’t replace it with anything new. It conveniently left out the details about how women are supposed to live their lives instead.
Wow. That is so wrong.
The main point of feminism is that no longer is society going to define (and enforce) "how women are supposed to live their lives".
If you don't understand that, then you don't know anything about feminism.
This article is definitely a slant to the right and a slap in the face to feminism and that's why I chose it. I wanted people to see how "the other side" feels about feminism and their reactions to it. Plus, I thought it would be easier for people to express their regrets about feminism if they had an article to relate to. I think feminism is so pushed and also so accepted, that if you don't like it, sometimes it's hard to swim against the tide and know you'll be called out if you want to put out a differing viewpoint.
Of course, I've seen threads on CD that are just the opposite, where people are torn apart for supporting feminism, too. But I was hoping I could get both viewpoints here.
Long answer: What a strange article. Written by Phyllis Schlafly’s niece, no less. Feminism has failed young women because it didn’t live up to a bunch of straw man talking points? What exactly does author believe successful feminism looks like: having it all, but with no tradeoffs or opportunity costs? That doesn’t exist for grownups of any sex or gender.
Short answer: No. Feminism still has work to do (especially with respect to intersectionality), but for broad strokes purposes, the goal of feminism is to achieve social, legal, and economic equality between the sexes. That is a moving target, so I’m not sure the work will ever be done.
I'm not surprised the toxic legacy of Phyllis Schlafly has raised its ugly head via a relative. That whole family is probably steeped in the misogyny of most main religions. It was the religious right and shoved Phyllis Schlafly into the spotlight to fight the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) which they viewed as a major threat to their privileged world of patriarchy. Schlafly was a traitor to the rights of women and deserves much scorn.
Having a Mom, three sisters and a wife I supported the ERA and the fight for equality in education, opportunity and especially in pay. So around 1971 I joined the N.O.W. and got an ERA bracelet that I quickly wore out. I left the N.O.W. in the late 1970s as they seemed to ignore issues like equal pay and mostly work on rights for the GLBT demographic. We are now seeing the religious right leading a charge against GLBT rights, just as against the ERA, again aided and abetted by some politicians.
Then, as now, religion seeks to marginalize women and relegate them to second class status. It was men who wrote the bibles of various religions and they wrote themselves into a cushy existence at the expense of women. The treatment and status of women in most religions today is toxic. Men are not toxic, per se, but they are when they seek to live by and/or force these antiquated doctrines on others. Women are free to live in this toxic world if they so choose; to each their own. YMMV.
There are many flavors to issues of who or what are toxic; it needs to be handled on a case by case basis. One size, or one remark, does not fit all cases, so we need to understand there are degrees of what's toxic and what it beneficial.
But overall I point a finger of blame at religion for long centuries of insisting that men are fore-ordained to be the head of the church and the family and for deliberately cutting women out of any role other than that of servants with busy wombs. The Nuns of the Catholic church are a great example of pushing women down into the ranks of worker bees, fit to teach children but unfit for the pulpit. Denied marriage and children, the Nuns are a life-long servant class to a male hierarchy. This is highly toxic and a contributing factor to the decline of that church.
Here's an article in today's NY Times about the church and how it lives in the past and continues its toxic ways. This gift link WILL get you past the paywall so you can read it for yourself. NY Times strongly moderates reader comments but there are many for this article; select Reader Picks for the very best comments. You'll see just how women feel about how they've been treated.
As I said earlier, we need a form of feminism for men, not for men to fight or oppose women but a way of thought to build men with strong character who can see that men and women working together is a far better construct than working at odds or seeking to hold the other down, and that there's no weakness or loss of face to be equal to others. This one excerpt from the NY Times article gets at my point that we all need to work together:
Quote:
As bonding agents, religion and patriotism have been superseded by Facebook and TikTok. But somehow social media, which was touted as an engine of connectivity, has left us disconnected and often lonely, not to mention combative. We’re all in our corners. We understand one another less than ever and have less desire to try.
Let's try.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 12-23-2023 at 04:16 PM..
I have always considered myself a feminist (although later I will tell you I don't like that word). I am 66. I can remember being as young as five years old and could not make sense of why Priests could say Mass but Nuns did not. I could not understand why my father always drove the car but never my mother. I did not understand why there were always men News anchors and not women (thankfully that has changed).
I still do not understand why women are treated like second class citizens. How in the World is it allowed that someone can tell me what I cannot do for my body? Why in the 70's I could make that decision and now I cannot? Why is it such a big deal that we have our first woman Vice President? How in 2023, is that not normal? Why would it be so odd to have a woman President? Why, in 2023 is it still odd to have a woman in charge?
I do not feel feminism failed women. Actually I do not like the word "feminism". Women just want equal rights/equal pay/equal opportunity. I work for a Forbes 500 Company--how is it the top Leadership consists of over 30 people and only two are women? How can that be in 2023?
I will admit that women send mixed messages. I still hear women say sometimes, "Is chivalry dead?". We cannot expect to be treated like strong women when we expect a man to open the door for us, give us your seat, grab the check, etc and still expect equal rights/equal pay. We send mixed messages.
I have always concerned myself a feminist (although later I will tell you I don't like that word). I am 66. I can remember being as young as five years old and could not make sense of why Priests could say Mass but Nuns did not. I could not understand why my father always drove the car but never my mother. I did not understand why there were always men News anchors and not women (thankfully that has changed).
I still do not understand why women are treated like second class citizens. How in the World is it allowed that someone can tell me what I cannot do for my body? Why in the 70's I could make that decision and now I cannot? Why is it such a big deal that we have our first woman Vice President? How in 2023, is that not normal? Why would it be so odd to have a woman President? Why, in 2023 is it still odd to have a woman in charge?
I do not feel feminism failed women. Actually I do not like the word "feminism". Women just want equal rights/equal pay/equal opportunity. I work for a Forbes 500 Company--how is it the top Leadership consists of over 30 people and only two are women? How can that be in 2023?
I will admit that women send mixed messages. I still hear women say sometimes, "Is chivalry dead?". We cannot expect to be treated like strong women when we expect a man to open the door for us, give us your seat, grab the check, etc and still expect equal rights/equal pay. We send mixed messages.
We still have so much work to do.
Yeah, it is an interesting nuance. Having equal rights as men doesn’t mean we are no longer women, so no, we’re not entitled to special treatment… but at the same time, we don’t want to be treated like their bros. I don’t think my generation (Gen X) struggled much with this, but I do hear this from younger women.
I disagree that that feminism failed women. I'm usually apprehensive about assigning blame to any ism for society problems. At their core they are merely theories which get worked into movements. They are then co-opted and rebranded to fit a particular agenda, even if that agenda bears little resemblance to original theory put forth. Birth control, cultural transformation (particularly around shame) and our economy shifting to a primarily service oriented one had more influence on the current problems experienced by women.
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Why in the 70's I could make that decision and now I cannot? 
Why is it such a big deal that we have our first woman Vice President? How in 2023, is that not normal? Why would it be so odd to have a woman President? Why, in 2023 is it still odd to have a woman in charge? 
