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Absolutely not. If I would take them to task, it would only be because they didn't do enough.
No women are "upset" and alone. That is 100% male / industry talking points.
Women need to work because, if they don't... they are at the mercy of a man. If they take time off to have children... good luck getting a high paying job if your *romance* doesn't work out.
And, you can bet, it won't if you don't have any leverage in the relationship.
The facts are.. studies show women do better out of relationships. Financially, healthwise, mental health wise. Every study that comes out saying that people who are alone are doing worse -- ARE MEN. Because without a woman they don't have a "slave" to prepare their meals... tell them to go to the doctor etc.
Gen z and the millennials are actively avoiding relationships because they see how toxic men are. Why do you think LGBTQ has become so big? Because they see that it is a healthier option than hetro / trad wife.
Wow. Reading this shows me that yes, it has failed miserably.
I'm "girls couldn't play boy sports" old, so I've lived through the whole movement, if you will.
There are women that are alone. I know many. And some are upset in being alone because they bought into the "I don't need a man" trope, delayed getting into a healthy and fulfilling relationship, and not having kids, because they were told that they MUST get an education, and have a career, at all costs. Now, that cost is coming due, and they are regretting their decision.
Women need to work because, if they don't, they starve and are homeless. Men need to work because, if they don't, they starve and are homeless. Calling marriage a "romance" illustrates how feminists have diluted the commitment and responsibility, on BOTH parties, to a marriage.
I'm highly suspect of any study showing women are better out of a relationship. All the studies I've seen show that people in relationships are far healthier than those that are single. And again, your thinking that all women in a relationship are slaves, shows me that you were raised with a very, very skewed perspective of a healthy relationship.
Gen Z and Millennials aren't avoiding relationships. Where do you get that idea? They might be delaying them, but I have lots of family and friends with children in that age bracket, and they are all getting married (horrors) and can't wait to have lots of kids. And if you truly think that men are all toxic, you need to find a different group of people to hang out with.
And LBGTQ is big for a variety of reasons, but they also are in relationships. And many of them are traditional as can be. I compete in a sport that attracts a large percentage of gay women. I have a trans friend that got married a few years ago. Their long range plan is to have lots of kids (bio and adopted) with his wife staying home to raise them while he works. I'd call that pretty traditional, wouldn't you? Another gay couple are happily raising their 2 adopted children, with one woman working outside the home, and the other working weekends so she can stay home with the kids. I also see a lot of the LGBTQ relationships that are horribly toxic, so that in and of itself is not an indicator of happiness. The feminist movement has failed a lot of women by convincing them that motherhood and raising children (and in some cases the children themselves) are evil.
Feminists have done young girls wrong by forcing them to ignore their nature. Women are nurturers. Men are providers. Is that true in every case? Of course not. Some women are less than nurturing, and some men don't want to be the provider. But it's in our DNA to find a partner and have children. To deny that is foolish.
Gen Z and millennial women are waking up to the lies feminists fed them. Now they are upset and alone
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/ge...6a237a13&ei=15"For decades our culture has failed women by spreading falsehood after falsehood about men, marriage, motherhood and career. It’s been a slow, daily drip of "You go, Girl!" messages, specifically designed to delete men and babies from life’s equation. And it has wreaked havoc on women’s lives."
I read about both sides quite often. Either feminism has ruined women, America, and our culture or it has liberated women and given women equality and freedom they never had before.
I'm sure many people will choose one side or the other. However, I'm equally sure there are a lot of No, buts and Yes, buts and a lot of subtle shadings in between. It would be nice to not bash feminism or men here, but I would be very curious to find out from people that if we were to do it over, knowing and feeling what we do now, would we still want feminism? Are the majority of women, as the article here seems to point out, upset because they ended up with no husband or family, or are these the regrets of just a few lone women? Do women think feminism failed them simply because they never thought about the consequences of their actions, or because feminism didn't go far enough? What are your thoughtsand opinions?
There is pogram of anti-self reliance in this country, victimhood for any bizarre reason you want to choose is encouraged. Feminism helped a lot of women, yes some went rabidly over the edge to the detriment of the whole feminist movement, yes men have clapped back often. In 2009 I actually was one of 4 women in a meeting of 16 software devlopers and our boss asked us for solutions to a problem. I stated my solution and it was as if I had said nothing. Other suggestions were made and shot down, finally the guy sitting next to me repeated my suggestion, got patted on the back and the meeting was over. So, what would you take from that walking away from that meeting? I am not soft spoken or timid. Many other incidents over the years, like getting flowers for secretary day when I wasn''t a secretary, and comments about "being on the rag" when I stood up for myself (not screaming just pointing out someone was being disrespectful). Once a coworker bragged that he had an IQ of 160. I laughed my head off and walked away wondering why he had said that me. I mentioned it to another coworker and he said "You intimidate him." Insecurity shows its ugly head in many ways.
We have a long way to go before we have equality of the genders. And women are often the culprits in this, as they have bought the victim mentality and the lie that women are "too emotional" for this or that, when my experience is that men are less in control of their emotions than most women, and they are much worse gossips. That being said, I have had one job where almost everyone was a woman and because of all the insecurities it was the worst job I ever had, because the bosses were all men and the workers were all women. The bosses fostered an environment of disrespect for everyone. It wasn't because they were men, it was because they were taught to act that way.
We can't change things until we actually change how we teach our children.
Last edited by DesertRat56; 12-24-2023 at 08:55 AM..
Yes I'm glad it existed. Laws changed and people, male and female, woke up to reality.
I remember walking into a bank in my early 20s and couldn't get a loan because I wasn't married. Wanted to take shop in high school but couldn't; shop was for boys. Had to take home-ec so I could sew and cook.
But I think it's a case of asking for more just to get compromise. As for feeling alone, don't blame feminism for the life you've chosen. If it accomplished only one thing it opened up choices. Get married or don't get married. Have kids or don't have kids. Have a career or a job.
your life; Your choice.
I had similar problems in high school. I didn't want to take shop but took a drafting class my sophmore year and then we moved in the middle of the year and the new school would not let me take drafting, made me take typing. I had already had typing. My brother and I told our parents we would run away if we had to go back to that school the next year, so they gave us a vehicle and we went back to the city school we had been going to. In Jr High I remember all girls were required to take home ec and boys were required to take shop, but a boy could take home ec as an elective and a girl could take shop as an elective. Some school districts were more relaxed than others in our state. My cousin went to a school that required boys to wear a button up shirt tucked in and keep their hair cut short, our school had no rules except that we must wear shoes. The 70's were a great time.
When my friends and I went to a local college for a weekend tour they gave the girls a tour of the home ec building and the boys got a tour of the science building. I was incensed and demanded that I go with the boys. They let me, because I was on that list as they had made a bad assumption of my gender based on my name. They had also had me on the list to stay at the fraternity but my mother, who was chaperone, nixed that and they scrambled to find me a room at the dorms with the other girls.
I gave you a rep for your first post but let's agree to disagree on this that you wrote:
"The Nuns of the Catholic church are a great example of pushing women down into the ranks of worker bees, fit to teach children but unfit for the pulpit. Denied marriage and children, the Nuns are a life-long servant class to a male hierarchy. This is highly toxic and a contributing factor to the decline of that church."
I am a 12 year Catholic school graduate taught by Dominican nuns, many were young enthusiastic teachers in elementary school (where minds are formed). They taught me to think for myself, search for my calling (vocation) and specifically suggested I go to college and not become a teacher. I did what they said.
Many nuns left their order and some got married during the 70s because the Church pushed back on letting nuns run their orders and lives. There was a real crackdown from the top but I only heard about that later because I have been non-religious since age 17.
Not all nuns are cut from the same cloth. Not all nuns agree with the male hierarchy in the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church has lost a lot of nuns since the 70s and that is a great loss to young students.
Not all women and nuns think alike.
Education makes a big difference.
My childhood nuns were very well educated and it showed.
I have more to say but haven't found a way yet to put it into the context of the thread. So just a few disjointed thoughts. I am not singling out any specific issue but musing on trends that have an effect on the subject.
We can all take a lesson from nature. Or call it biology, sociology, history. The direction of the generations I've lived through seem increasingly divorced from what is natural in multiple ways. At the most basic level, environments of glass and concrete and ignorance of the way humans and animals naturally behave. There seems a strong drive to believe we can overcome the natural with what is the most desirable.
The concept of self-management for the survival of the whole is increasingly devalued.
How people think and feel are not "the problem." Some of those things are inherent and little short of abuse will alter them. Patience, time, education and role-modeling are the most constructive methods to achieve this.
The fixable problem is behavior. That can be legislated. We need to tread lightly and beware mind-reading here at risk of legislating our freedoms away. Baby with the bathwater.
That leads to some humor but there's a lot of ah, provoking, food for thought there. It's about ogling, catcalling, what we now call objectifying. I've seen it from both sides - as a social norm and as a social taboo. It's still a social norm in places where people are making enough money off the practice. By itself that is worth more than a single thread.
Always had mixed feelings about it. Still do. I wonder if that isn't common for many women. It seemed like a compliment when I was a teen and yet there was some underlying discomfort when it happened that I couldn't identify.
Well, we've come a long way, Baby, but ogling, or objectifying women, is still practiced in the most austere situations. I like to think of some of it as appreciation.
Sometimes I see it in the eyes of my senior citizen male friends and I know they just had a moment. I don't want to throw that baby out with the bathwater at all. These are educated men and considerate. They follow the rules and don't say or do anything offensive. But they are healthy and male. I'm glad for that and really quite happy to have been a brief part of a memory or daydream.
Some things will never change without medication or surgery and they need to be celebrated in healthy ways. I want all of us to be comfortable with who we are at whatever point on the path we are on. And vice versa.
Gen Z and millennial women are waking up to the lies feminists fed them. Now they are upset and alone.
I'm definitely supportive of feminism. It still needs some work though.
The issue being raised in the article is something else. I don't know how many young women are going through life saying "I don't need men, I don't need kids" but I would be surprised if it's really that many. I know some feminist, progressive millennial moms (though I'm Gen X, so most I know are a bit older). Many women certainly delay having kids, to do other things (college, career, travel, etc), and that can result in fertility problems when they finally decide they want kids. This is something that I think women don't think about or aren't told when they're younger. The window to have kids is shorter than you think. I know a couple of women who chose not to have kids - still got married - and they maintain they're happy with that choice. (Time will tell). There are plenty who have tried to "have it all" and were frustrated with how that worked out. It is unfortunately the case that we are not fully supported to be the childbearers, move forward in careers, have an equal share of overall workload, and the full respect of many men in making these choices.
There are plenty who have tried to "have it all" and were frustrated with how that worked out. It is unfortunately the case that we are not fully supported to be the childbearers, move forward in careers, have an equal share of overall workload, and the full respect of many men in making these choices.
I'm Gen X also and a mother of 3, and I am completely on board with women's choices--get married or not, have children or not, work full-time or not, as you like. But at this stage I think most women understand that a woman can't really "have it all" if that means bearing and raising children while simultaneously working full-time and advancing in a career. It's not even about having enough support, it's that it is simply too much work for one human being. Something has to give and that is going to be either the kids or the job, in one way or another, not to mention the marriage. (Do either men or women really want to work all day, shop during their lunch hour, pick up the kids, get home at 6pm and then start cooking, housecleaning, and doing laundry?)
You can't have it all at every season of life. You either farm some of it out (put the kids in full-time daycare, hire out the housework, eat takeout food, none of which may be ideal) and/or cut back (work part time instead of full time). I wouldn't say "feminism" has failed women, I would say that the pursuit having it all has failed them. And since men cannot bear children, the premise of total equality in the working world is flawed to begin with.
Quote:
I will admit that women send mixed messages. I still hear women say sometimes, "Is chivalry dead?". We cannot expect to be treated like strong women when we expect a man to open the door for us, give us your seat, grab the check, etc and still expect equal rights/equal pay. We send mixed messages.
Someone, I think it was Peg Bracken, said that good manners in regard to the sexes is whatever makes a man feel more like a man, while simultaneously making a woman feel more like a woman. I am not talking about equal pay or equal opportunity in the workplace, which is a different sphere. I am talking about things like a man opening a door for a woman or picking up the check on a date, which should make both of them feel good. I don't consider those mixed messages; I consider those acknowledgment of the fact that men and woman are equal but different.
.....Many women certainly delay having kids, to do other things (college, career, travel, etc), and that can result in fertility problems when they finally decide they want kids. This is something that I think women don't think about or aren't told when they're younger. The window to have kids is shorter than you think.
Men do not have the same problems deciding when to have children.
That is the inequality showing.
If our country had more social supports for women (quality childcare available with generous tax credits for example) it would not be a decision they have to make between having a career and having children.
Part of the reason elected officials keep their mouth shut about social support is they have to face racism plus sexism. Some groups want women to stay home and have babies, some groups don't want their tax money supporting non-white families or families who cannot afford childcare vs their lower paying job.
I think motherhood SHOULD be a career for those who want it. They should get benefits because they are working darn hard. Laws are not in place for non-wealthy women to have a family without a lot of work to make it happen.
My oldest niece just got divorced, 2 elementary age kids. She has always had a career but now she'll be doing a lot more of the heavy-lifting. No one saw it coming but life happens.
If our country had more social supports for women (quality childcare available with generous tax credits for example) it would not be a decision they have to make between having a career and having children.
It's certainly possible to have a career (defined as full-time) and have children, who are then necessarily in full-time daycare until school age. then in full-time school with after-school extended care, and in summer day camps all summer long.
The issue is that a large percentage of mothers do not consider this an ideal situation for themselves or their children. Throwing money at it ("more social support" for working mothers) is not going to make it more ideal. This is entirely apart from the idea that parents under a certain income level should get benefits.
Honestly, what is ideal for children is to be cared for by a parent or other relative until school-age, then have a parent or other relative to come home to after school. Of course I know people who were raised by babysitters or were latchkey kids, but to be frank, most of them either chose not to have children or they made a way for one parent to stay home when they had their own small children.
I’m close to being an elderly feminist, but even those “Sisterhood Is Powerful” messages have always felt false to me. If we women were so powerful, we’d control the government, Wall Street, the judiciary, the military and religious institutions already. For example, women represent 29% of the US House and 25% of the senate yet half of this country are women. Yes, we’ve made strides, but still have far to go.
I think feminism has opened many doors for women but its major flaw is that it lumps all women together as one huge monolith moving in solidarity. Not all feminists act, think or believe the same things, politically or philosophically. Feminists are everywhere—married, single, with kids, and without, career-oriented and not. I think that especially in the early years of the feminist movement, it was an either or decision— give up wanting marriage and kids, otherwise you’re not supporting women’s equality.
For me though, I’m glad there was, and is, a feminist movement, because my soul would have died if I felt I had to marry early, depend on my husband for money, and raise kids. That life wasn’t for me and because of equal opportunity laws that came about due to feminism,I have more economic freedom than I would have had otherwise.
I know that practically world-wide, people are marrying later and either having kids later or none at all. Is feminism solely to blame? I don’t think so. I don’t think it’s fair to blame the feminist movement for that. Can some of these young women feel let down because they got the message from feminists that “you can have it all?” That I can see. But life is a series of trade offs. We all have to make the choices that are right for us.
Women are blinded by feminism. They believe have something to prove and they are willing to give up their reproductive years just to prove men wrong. Then after they realize maybe other women get to enjoy family life and still have a decent career while the men must further their career to run a family. They were betrayed by their ideals. When you're 45 and all you have is a 6 figure income and you can't reproduce easily. Is that worth it?
This is not a NEW problem, there has been societies with women for as long as human civilization has been around and eventually it all balances back.
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The 70's were a great time.