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The WVU discounts apply to virtually every student in EVERY state in the US, not just the 5 bordering states. Out-of-state tuition is set based on nearest out-of-state competitors. You can then compete with those close-by competitors using scholarships to match their in-state tuition, which both do. You can't set multiple out-of-state tuitions and charge differently for different states. Other states may or may not benefit on that base tuition that the schools have to set to compete in their "local" market. And you claim that your grandson in Ireland could go to MU on the Legacy Scholarship but are you an active paying member of the MU Alumni Association? If not, then he can't get the scholarship.
And the policies at WVU sure are there to help build up Morgantown. The educated citizenry is there because of.....WVU students and staff. Construction there is up because of.....WVU and the need for apartments and new facilities. Entertainment is provided almost solely by....WVU. And aside from WVU and things related to/connected to WVU, what is so diverse about the economy? I'm not saying this is bad, just don't exaggerate things and make it sound like if you remove WVU that Morgantown would still be fine. And WVU isn't dominated by people from the city, rather the city is dominated by people from WVU. As with most college towns, the two have a symbiotic relationship. Again, the former mayor was a WVU employee and look how the city uses WVU to boost its stats. This was my observation as a WVU student and as someone with family there.
Again, about the pay, the scale you posted showed the as expected pay scale for WV colleges. The schools with more advanced degrees offer higher average pay due to the graduate programs. As MU offers more graduate programs, this will increase the salaries here in Huntington. Check out these two links for openings at both. MU has a low of $34,500 and a high of $200,000. WVU has a low of $32,000 and a high of $198,000. The difference is there are more of the higher end jobs, and more altogether, at WVU due to higher number of degrees and higher number of graduate degrees. Does this not make sense?
STUPID move. Not for Marshall, they'll make a ton of money, but for the idiot pharmacists that are opening yet another school. You used to need a 3.6+ GPA to get into pharmacy school. Now these third-tier diploma mills have been accepting candidates with GPAs less than 3.0 in some schools. It's yet another step towards diluting the talent pool in pharmacy. Some of these kids I see coming out of these new upstart schools, frankly, frighten me. Fresh out of school, they are incompetent. Charleston, Shenandoah, Appalachia, Wilkes-Barre - they have lowered the bar so much that I honestly think it is going to harm the profession long term. We actually don't hire W-B students because we've yet to run into one worth a damn...and that's likely the type of students Marshall will get for the first decade at least as it will take a good 6 years to get accredited fully. Yay.
Not to mention that's also discounting the practical economics of it. The market for the profession is already starting to become saturated. Graduates on the Eastern Seaboard are already having trouble finding work. Grads from the Philly schools and Rutgers are finding it VERY difficult to find work. More than 30 schools have opened within the last 10 years from the original 79. Just people trying to cash in on the "shortage" from 2000-2005 that's long since ended. Unbelievable. Thanks Marshall. You're idiotic me-too arms race with WVU is going to be yet another disservice to the state.
I'm seriously going to consider a move to Canada. The pay is about the same...and they have a ton of intangibles...like they still give people pensions. Plus, they still only give out B.S. in pharmacy there...I'd be the only dude around with a PharmD. They have ten schools for the entire country. Ontario and Quebec have two. And each school takes only the most upper-tier candidates. The job market in Ontario will always be ripe. In the US, any greedy idiot can open up a school. The ACPE has to follow a judgment that they can't restrict the amount of schools that want to become accredited. So, yup, any Tom, Dick, or Harry can open one up. Make millions in the process. Unfortunately, the greed in academia is going to make pharmacy a less and less appealing profession in the US. Granted, I went to one of the original 79 schools and have experience, so I'll have the resume and pedigree to always have a job...but still...it's disheartening...
Just Charleston opening a diploma mill was ridiculous. Now Marshall? Really? Three schools in WV? Does anyone really think that much demand exists? Especially with Walgreens and other retailers going to the central-fill model that stands to cut manpower hours by up to 33%? Unbelievable.
The marketplace determines what type of demand exists for pharmacists (and any profession) and obviously there is a demand or Marshall wouldn't be considering such an addition. Why should state institutions curtail degree programs just so pharmacy can be some sort of exclusive profession when colleges are opening up nursing and other healthcare related programs left and right?
I'm not devauling the profession in any way but as long as my pharmacist (and their technicians) give me the correct prescription that I've called in I could really care less what school they attended or how many such programs exist in the state.
See? All this discord in the state over drugs. This is why I went into the safe and rewarding field of finance! Except for that whole...meltdown crap.. BUT.. at least I'm not a damned pharmacist!
The marketplace determines what type of demand exists for pharmacists (and any profession) and obviously there is a demand or Marshall wouldn't be considering such an addition.
There isn't. Well, there WAS. It has decreased the last few years. Some schools that planned on opening have actually ceased such plans as the demand has waned. Leave it to Marshall to ignore reality of course.
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Why should state institutions curtail degree programs just so pharmacy can be some sort of exclusive profession when colleges are opening up nursing and other healthcare related programs left and right?
There is a legitimate need for nurses. EVERY hospital from coast to coast is hiring nurses. You can't automate nursing. You can and they are planning on automating pharmacy. I want the best of the best to go into medicine, dentistry, physicians' assistantry (?lol), and pharmacy. If you make the profession easy to get into, you'll have an idiot making very important decisions. It's a profession that needs to be heavily guarded from entry for the sake of the public.
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I'm not devauling the profession in any way but as long as my pharmacist (and their technicians) give me the correct prescription that I've called in I could really care less what school they attended or how many such programs exist in the state.
The problem is that in 20 years, that's not even what pharmacists are going to be doing. Retail pharmacy is being automated more and more...and pharmacists are moving into clinical roles more and more. And when you're in the hospital with a severe MRSA infection and you need an expert opinion on dosing vancomycin so that it kills the bug and doesn't kill your kidney...you'll care where they graduated from. And some of the kids from these new schools can't even tell me what the optimal vanc trough for a MRSA infection is. Or even basic concepts like the effects of adjusting dose vs adjusting interval. It's sad.
I don't work retail, but it's much more in depth than you think as well. At least Marshall is an actual university. There are literally culinary colleges that have branched out into pharmacy. It's getting ridiculous.
They have researched the need for this new degree and this is what they found "The proposal laid out by the College of Health Professions says pharmacists are in high demand, particularly in rural areas of West Virginia, and that the need for more will grow as the population ages. Employment opportunities in the field are expected to grow nationwide by 22 percent through 2016, translating into the need for about 53,000 more pharmacists in that period, according to U.S. Labor Department statistics." So this isn't some stat cooked up by MU, it's from the US Labor Department.
Based on those statistics, it sounds like there is a need. And based on the quality of the other programs at the MU school of medicine, I doubt the program will be sub-par, especially once it becomes established.
And just a few years ago, I seem to recall that the nursing field was oversaturated and they were telling people to stay out of the field. Now the schools can't produce enough to keep up with the shortage.
And CT,
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
I don't want bad things for Marshall or for Huntington.
You may not want bad things but you don't seem too keen on the good things. You sure seem to exaggerate the negatives and downplay the positives a lot. That typically isn't a sign of someone wanting good things for something.
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
You are the one with rose colored glasses. It's easy to say good things about Morgantown. They don't have the same situation, and if it weren't for the fact that you have some kind of issue there you'd have to admit yourself that it is doing very well indeed, by every objective measure.
I have no issue with the city. What I take issue with is when people try to bash other areas and institutions in the state for the same things that go on there. Once again, it boils down to exaggerating the negatives elsewhere and ignoring them there. Just look at your consistent criticism of MU out-of-state scholarships. You refuse to call them scholarships or anything but "Wal-mart like deep discounts" even though it's been shown that they do the same thing at WVU except it's open to a greater number of people. No criticism there though. I know Huntington has its problems and I've admitted that, but I've also shown that those problems are being worked on and progress is being made. When people point out problems in Morgantown, you pretty much call them crazy if it's anything beyond bad traffic. Who seems to be wearing the rose colored glasses?
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
But we have enough Physical Therapy programs (and too many medical schools) in the state as it is. I don't think it would be advisable to add any more... do you?
I think adding a PT program at MU is a very smart choice. You have the 2 largest markets in West Virginia within 45 minutes and this also provides the opportunity to better serve the southern part of the state. With the success of the med school here, I hardly think you can say it's not needed. If we do cut one, let's cut the one that has to be subsidized by its own tax to the tune of $25 million, which accounts for 1/4 of it's budget. My stance is that we don't cut any of them though because I think they are all great for the state.
Tim, you are correct that the character of the two towns is vastly different. As you pointed out, Morgantown is primarily a college town and seeks to maintain that identity. Their economy is, however, quite diverse. Many people there are Federal employees at the local Federal prisons and the FBI in Clarksburg/Fairmont. In addition, as the state's primary healthcare provider there are something like 7,000 people employed in that field in a capicity only peripherally connected to The University. Since you work in that field, I'm sure you can appreciate that. Mylan is also a major, and growing employer and there are the coal mines, electric production, and a budding retail market. But nobody would argue with you that the main reason Morgantown is so well educated is because of WVU.
But, you are glossing over a whole bunch when you try to draw parallels between the faculty salaries at Marshall and those at WVU as though they were even close to being on the same footing. You pointed out a couple of extremes, and tried to generalize that for thousands of positions. The fact that the much greater amount of advanced degrees at WVU contributes to the disparity is undeniable, but it doesn't explain the differences at the lower levels of instructor ranks. That can be attributed almost solely to the lower tuition charged at Marshall. Lower tuition = less funds to pay faculty salaries. Either that, or they would have to have a much greater "teaching load" with far more students paying tuition for each instructional position, and we know that isn't the case.
Kopp is playing the tune his mostly locally connected Board wants to hear... that there will be more bodies in Huntington. He is not stupid, and knows full well the implications of acting in this manner. If he gets some butts in the seats, he will be hailed there as a great success and will be able to parlay that into a better position at Ohio U. or Bowling Green. But, he knows full well that by "growing" in this manner it is only a matter of time before the school will have to pay the piper. The economy will not remain in the depressed state that is favorable to schools like Marshall indefinitely. The State's budget will not support more bailouts of failed policies. Somebody will have to pay the rent on the Rec. Center when student count falls once again, as it did after the last recession, and on the new clapboard dormatories when there aren't as many students paying the fees.
You see, the growth he is instituting is not really demand driven. He is gambling that "if you build it, they will come" demand can be created. The problem is, he isn't doing that with his own money... he's doing it with ours. And, he won't be the one stuck with the mess when it fails. He can get away with it because the folks around there are desperate for any hints of success... any at all, and will grasp at any perceptions of it no matter how illusory they might be.
And Tim, joining the Marshall Alumni Association is cheap and a relatively effective way of keeping in touch with what is happening there. They don't do nearly as good a job of it as WVU (I suspect you're a member there too, so you know that), but they do send along fairly regular e-mail updates as well as an alumni magazine, which I have received for years.
Tim, it's perfectly obvious that you are part of the Huntington crowd that believes adding anything at Marshall is a good idea. It is easy to add poorly financed and inadequately staffed programs... any school can do that. But don't you think they should be demand driven... not created in hopes of creating demand. And, don't you think they should be created in a way that doesn't diminish quality?
It's also perfectly obvious that you are a person who doesn't appreciate the opportunities afforded you by the education provided to you by your alma mater. Since you're from Huntington, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. My guess is you'd drive to Ohio to buy pop so you wouldn't be giving your old school, which is, by far, the State's major source of medical training and expertise, a penny. How sad. Marshall wouldn't even have a medical school unless WVU had agreed they could have one. Personally, I think that was a mistake, but then again, what do I know? You're from Huntington, ...I'm sure you have all the answers.
But don't you think they should be demand driven... not created in hopes of creating demand. And, don't you think they should be created in a way that doesn't diminish quality?
Did you not read any part of the articles I posted that addressed demand? Local hospitals were pushing for it and over the next 6 years, they will need 53,000 more pharmacists to meet demand, per the US Labor Department. I'd say that meets the demand criteria. And as previously stated, knowing the quality of the other programs here, I have no worries about the program here.
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
It's also perfectly obvious that you are a person who doesn't appreciate the opportunities afforded you by the education provided to you by your alma mater. Since you're from Huntington, I guess that shouldn't surprise me. My guess is you'd drive to Ohio to buy pop so you wouldn't be giving your old school,...
I appreciate my education very much, but it wasn't given, it was earned. I chose to go there to support my state. I could have gone to UK just as easily with all tuition and fees covered, gone with some close friends and been an hour closer to home, but I didn't. And along those lines, I buy as little as possible in Ohio, once again to support my state. I have no disdain for WVU like you do for MU. I only use them in my examples because #1 I'm very familiar with them and #2 they are your gold standard. When you berate Marshall for the same things they do at WVU, it takes your credibility down a few notches due to the double standard. And I only used the pop tax because as usual, it's OK to you if WVU programs are subsidized but if MU programs are, it's shameful. Name one MU program that has its own tax.
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Originally Posted by CTMountaineer
Marshall wouldn't even have a medical school unless WVU had agreed they could have one. Personally, I think that was a mistake, but then again, what do I know? You're from Huntington, ...I'm sure you have all the answers.
This is the sad part. Why should one institution have the ability to dictate what programs other institutions can and can't have? Marshall shouldn't NEED WVUs permission to start anything. It just shows how corrupt our state is when things like this happen. And you truly think having 3 VERY successful medical schools which provide better healthcare to the state is a mistake? Even more sad.
The marketplace determines what type of demand exists for pharmacists (and any profession) and obviously there is a demand or Marshall wouldn't be considering such an addition. Why should state institutions curtail degree programs just so pharmacy can be some sort of exclusive profession when colleges are opening up nursing and other healthcare related programs left and right?
I'm not devauling the profession in any way but as long as my pharmacist (and their technicians) give me the correct prescription that I've called in I could really care less what school they attended or how many such programs exist in the state.
You are talking about two different marketplaces here, not one.
The fact that Marshall might be able to get people to sign up for a program does not mean demand is increasing for workers in that field, nor does it mean that having an excess of graduates in a particular field would either be good for that field or for the current workforce in it. You can keep building medical schools ad infinitum and people will try to attend because the pay for physicians is high. That does not mean we need more medical schools nor does it mean it is advisable to turn out more physicians because at some point the law of diminishing returns sets in and the product is inferior. The State of West Virginia has reached that point with pharmacy schools.
Marshall doesn't really have the resources to adequately start any new programs now, but if they had started a needed optometry school I wouldn't be dead set against it. This is just the latest in a series of wasteful, unnecessary, and inadvisable moves by an administration that does not really have the best interests of the state or its students at heart. It is promoting its own agenda at the expense of everyone else.
Did you not read any part of the articles I posted that addressed demand? Local hospitals were pushing for it and over the next 6 years, they will need 53,000 more pharmacists to meet demand, per the US Labor Department. I'd say that meets the demand criteria. And as previously stated, knowing the quality of the other programs here, I have no worries about the program here.
I appreciate my education very much, but it wasn't given, it was earned. I chose to go there to support my state. I could have gone to UK just as easily with all tuition and fees covered, gone with some close friends and been an hour closer to home, but I didn't. And along those lines, I buy as little as possible in Ohio, once again to support my state. I have no disdain for WVU like you do for MU. I only use them in my examples because #1 I'm very familiar with them and #2 they are your gold standard. When you berate Marshall for the same things they do at WVU, it takes your credibility down a few notches due to the double standard. And I only used the pop tax because as usual, it's OK to you if WVU programs are subsidized but if MU programs are, it's shameful. Name one MU program that has its own tax.
This is the sad part. Why should one institution have the ability to dictate what programs other institutions can and can't have? Marshall shouldn't NEED WVUs permission to start anything. It just shows how corrupt our state is when things like this happen. And you truly think having 3 VERY successful medical schools which provide better healthcare to the state is a mistake? Even more sad.
I don't have a distain for my alma mater, Marshall. I have a distain for the policies of the current and recent administrations there.
The pop tax was instituted in the 1950s for the specific purpose of supporting the state's major medical research university. It continues to serve that purpose. It helped make your education possible... why in the world would you oppose it? When the osteopathic school was started in Lewisburg they knew of the state's support for medical education in Morgantown and made no issue about that. When Marshall wanted to start a medical school (stressing an already tight higher education budget in the state) they asked for WVU's support in the endeavor. WVU administrators signed off on the idea with the understanding that it had no effect on the pop tax revenue stream for the state's primary medical center in Morgantown.
It was fully understood by everyone involved... I suspect as a Pharm grad you know that. Yet, ever since Marshall has had their school up and running there have been endless insults and rantings about the pop tax.
The fact that a new medical school (of highly questionable need) was authorized at state expense is in and of itself a new tax on state residents. As far as I know, there were no additional revenue sources found to support that school so the funding had to come from somewhere. And, the Edwards family only stepped so far to the plate. The current stake holders of necessity helped fund it by sacrificing current resources.
Instead of appreciating the support, like many other instances of dealings with administrators, and yes fellow alumni from Marshall, they turn to an entitlement mentality, demanding that somebody else do something for them, and lamenting that someone else has something they don't have. They essentially set themselves up to not only look bad to everyone but their delusional selves, but to have a permanent inferiority complex when they consistently come up short in comparisons. It is distressing for this alumnus to observe, though I'm not sure you can relate to that. They'd be infinitely better off to be praising WVU at every turn, but they let petty jealousies take over and turn potential good relations into some kind of adversarial situation. Marshall is a good regional school, but it will never be WVU and they should stop trying to be WVU. They should focus on being the best Marshall they can be.
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