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Well, I don't follow Judaism, but my mother and father are both Jewish, therefore, I'm a full-blooded Jew. So being Jewish is an ethnicity.
Couldn't acces your profile ,but if...u r true,then u bring an interesting perspective in our discussion...
I guess that u identify with the Jewish nation & u r a supporter of motherland Israel etc...
Isn't there an internal debate within the Jews about the loyalty of a convert ?
For instance,the traitor Vanunu,who is a Morocan muslim convert,was treated as a Jew,by Israeli authorities...I believe he always was an Islamist freak who disguised himself as a Jew,used the non -racist environment in Israeli Army to get promoted & at the right time & place,he did the high treason...
I can't call myself a "convert". I believe in order to be a convert, you need to be a follower of Judaism first. I was raised in a Communist Soviet Union, practically without religion of any kind by agnostic parents. I was an agnostic for most of my life, but found myself identifying with Messianic Christianity, hence this is my faith and my religion. Although I do not follow Judaism, I'm still ethnically a Jew since both of my parents are full-blooded Jews. Of course many Jews feel that I betrayed my religion, even those Jews who don't follow any religion at all judge me for my choice. I think if I was following any other religion like Buddhism, I would get more slack, but Christianity is associated with persecution of many Jews therefore Jews who end up Messianic Jews or Messianic Christians quite often looked down on as traitors and misguided souls.
Of course, I'm a huge supporter of Israel and my nation. I have great love for my people, I love the traditions and I still celebrate many Jewish holidays. I don't feel any lesser of a Jew.
Fine argument,the kind that makes this thread worth reading...
Now I understand why many Jews see those Evangelicals as potential antisems...
I believe that the most sensible move would be for the Jews to try to re-judise the christianised Jews of Europe...
For example,many people in England have jewish surnames,yet they are protestantised/englishised.like Lord Marks,of the Marks & Spencer shops...Or here in USA,Sen Kerry,irishised/catholisized Jew ( grandpa changed Coheh to Kerry).
( Actually,that freak Iranian islamist...Ahmadinezad has jewish roots..!).
Those people would not be regarded "converts ",but "reunited" ..."Retrieved' ...
The bottom line is that the Jews must certainly increase their numbers,preferably by making lots of children...
Imagine a world with 30-40 m Jews..They would be the locomotive of prosperity...
Couldn't acces your profile ,but if...u r true,then u bring an interesting perspective in our discussion...
I guess that u identify with the Jewish nation & u r a supporter of motherland Israel etc...
Isn't there an internal debate within the Jews about the loyalty of a convert ?
For instance,the traitor Vanunu,who is a Morocan muslim convert,was treated as a Jew,by Israeli authorities...I believe he always was an Islamist freak who disguised himself as a Jew,used the non -racist environment in Israeli Army to get promoted & at the right time & place,he did the high treason...
Many Arab "Jews " can be future Vanunus...
Mordechai Vanunu was most certainly a Jew, since converted to Christianity. Muslim convert? Please, stop this ridiculousness. Jews appreciate honesty in debate, something you certainly lack. Vanunu's father was a rabbi. That's almost as far from a convert as you can get.
There is no internal debate about the loyalty of a convert. Do not quote anything about Orthodox Jews either- I go to a Jewish university and my roommates range from nonreligious (myself) to Modern Orthodox and include 2 presidents of the various sectors of Hillel. We discuss the nuances of Judaism quite often, including this topic, and there are no ill feelings towards converts.
When one goes through the arduous process of conversion, they are considered reborn with a Jewish soul. While some Orthodox Jews will not accept a convert who did not convert to Orthodox Judaism, it has nothing to do with the loyalty of the convert.
As a Jew by choice I will speak to your view on converts: People who convert to judaism don't betray a faith they have simply chosen Judaism. You don't just convert to Judaism. You have to work with a Rabbi and study and learn. You need to learn Hebrew, Jewish history, Jewish theology, you need to live a Jewish life and bring the practice into your home. You have to stand before a beit din a Jewish court when you are ready to become Jewish. Then you go into the mikvah. This process may take more then a year and I know several converts who studied 3 years. My period of study lasted 2 years. Most Jews by choice are very sure they want to become Jewish. Jews by choice bring a love of Judaism, and excitement of being Jewish.
As a convert I am as Jewish as someone who was born Jewish. Jews are people who share a religion, and a history. We are not a nation of people connected by blood, but every Jew is connected to all other Jews.
Converts bring much into Judaism, and Judaism during its history (pre-Christianity) actually encouraged converts and it was easier to become Jewish.
Well said. Welcome to the tribe! :-)
To the OP, you left off the option of "all of the above." Judaism is an ancient religion and it encompasses nationhood, religion, and culture. The original core of the Jewish people, the 12 tribes and their descendents, were/are connected by blood; over centuries and centuries, converts continuously entered the people via their religious beliefs and convictions to follow Judaism; because Jews by both blood and belief have lived together sharing practices, beliefs, and a common language, a culture developed that is distinctly Jewish. Because Jews dispersed throughout the world, there are also subcultures within the Jewish people that reflect their host country.
Remember that only 2 tribes survived after the breakup of the kingdom of Israel- the rest were the 10 lost tribes. That's not very many people. There is no way the Jewish people could have survived and proliferated without the help of some converts along the way!
Last edited by chattypatty; 02-05-2010 at 11:50 PM..
Apart from the demeaning attitude against Baptists,u made your point...
U accept the concept that a person can be a Jew without having Jewish blood,which for me - if I were a Jew - would be unacceptable,bordering treason...
Harry, there have always been converts to Judaism. Abraham and Sarah were considered the very first converts to Judaism! That is why all converts are called the sons and daughters of Abraham and Sarah. In fact, that is their formal name -- they are, for example, Reuben son of Abraham.
Ruth, King David's grandmother, was a famous convert to Judaism. Rabbi Akiva was the child of converts and is one of our greatest sages. Onkelos was a convert and he translated the Talmud.
Jewish law, called "halacha," has extensive rules about conversion, which is evidence that conversion is obviously a legitimate way to become Jewish. God himself instructed the born Jews on how to behave toward converts to Judaism. One of the most serious offenses a born Jew can commit is to oppress or hurt a converted Jew.
You have a very limited view of what a Jew is. Perhaps you have been talking to born Jews who are very ignorant of their Talmud Torah and think that "only born Jews are the real Jews." This is not true, and is in direct conflict with Jewish law and God himself!
(Also please see my note to you, included in the post above to JazzyMom)
Last edited by chattypatty; 02-05-2010 at 11:51 PM..
To the OP, you left off the option of "all of the above." Judaism is an ancient religion and it encompasses nationhood, religion, and culture. The original core of the Jewish people, the 12 tribes and their descendents, were/are connected by blood; over centuries and centuries, converts continuously entered the people via their religious beliefs and convictions to follow Judaism; because Jews by both blood and belief have lived together sharing practices, beliefs, and a common language, a culture developed that is distinctly Jewish. Because Jews dispersed throughout the world, there are also subcultures within the Jewish people that reflect their host country.
Remember that only 2 tribes survived after the breakup of the kingdom of Israel- the rest were the 10 lost tribes. That's not very many people. There is no way the Jewish people could have survived and proliferated without the help of some converts along the way!
Please re-read the OP if need be. It's the Religion and Philosophy forum, not the Politics forum. June doesn't want to have to close this one down, ya know?
~Thanks, and enjoy the weekend.
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when, how? 
