Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The question isn't "Where do orders originate from?" or "What if you don't follow orders?"
It's an exercise in self discipline. If you're smart, you'll recognize that it benefits you to follow orders. On the other hand, it's not rocket science. Get up every day at Zero dark thirty, put on a squared away uniform and go do your job.
WELL, on the other side of the coin.........it can suck being military police because if the superior over you is doing something wrong and they don't want you to find out, they will do ANYTHING to stop you and that includes using one's ingrained mode to obey one's superiors.
I had that done to me at least once although at the time, I wasn't in military police. A superior denied that he gave me orders to do something (I guess he got called on it) and at the time, being a new, young officer, I accepted what he was denying infront of my troops. Oh, if only I had my bulldog attitude then.
Later on, when I was in military police, another officer taught me that lesson, if painfully, that if, say, a superior was doing drugs, they will do anything to prevent you from finding out, of denying them their retirement.
A, B, and C. A: Certainly something to cause one ulcers to have to always analyze what is being to told to them and be wondering if it is the truth.
B: One's best bet is to know the regulations completely and obey them to the letter but even that isn't a sure bet because.......
C: I was long out of the service when Abu Gharaib came up but had I stayed, I could have been in that position and my Captain that I was a provost marshal under asked me of what I would have done. I know the rules of war, one does not torture prisoners. I would have refused to obey orders or incompetently obeyed them and if I was lucky, I would have been dismissed from the service, kissing the 20 years retirement good bye. A few times burned, a few times shy but I know for those who give such orders are never around holding the bag.
I'll say this from personal experience in Vietnam. When an Waring order came down to my very small unit to do a snatch and grab ,it was done no matter who or what got in the way.
When given an order you do what you're told to do without question. Doesn't matter what. If you fail, people could die. Many times servicemen will not have complete information as to what or why they have been ordered to do something. The military is not a democracy, there's no committee deciding what to do, you're not getting much input into whatever you were ordered to do. You do it.
If you're in combat its not like hollywood movies, if you refuse an order chances are you'll be shot on the spot by one of your own officers.
Something else that needs to be stressed here and that is taking orders from those in your chain of command but being on different ground with those who are not.
Two examples. A: People do not like being stopped for gate searches. I've had Generals telling me not to search their cars but since they were not in my chain of command, they could not over ride the orders my Captain gave me. Little O-2 telling an O-8 "No, Sir.". One is respectful all the way but they do not obey those who tell them not to carry out their orders if they aren't in the chain of command.
B: One also does not intrude on the territory of another. In the past, I've heard people say that if a sentry did not respect them properly, they would stop and immediately correct the sentry. This is not correct; they take it up with the "watch commander" but they do not interrupt the operation of the base.
Finally, on a slight side point, an O-4 did not like that we stopped him and his family for a gate search at night. On departure, he said, "You can tell your Captain there are better times to do a gate search!". After he was gone, my leading petty officer said,
"Oh, please do tell the Captain that, Lieutenant. The Captain loves tearing into officers who try to tell him how to run his base.".
Something else that needs to be stressed here and that is taking orders from those in your chain of command but being on different ground with those who are not.
Two examples. A: People do not like being stopped for gate searches. I've had Generals telling me not to search their cars but since they were not in my chain of command, they could not over ride the orders my Captain gave me. Little O-2 telling an O-8 "No, Sir.". One is respectful all the way but they do not obey those who tell them not to carry out their orders if they aren't in the chain of command.
B: One also does not intrude on the territory of another. In the past, I've heard people say that if a sentry did not respect them properly, they would stop and immediately correct the sentry. This is not correct; they take it up with the "watch commander" but they do not interrupt the operation of the base.
Finally, on a slight side point, an O-4 did not like that we stopped him and his family for a gate search at night. On departure, he said, "You can tell your Captain there are better times to do a gate search!". After he was gone, my leading petty officer said,
"Oh, please do tell the Captain that, Lieutenant. The Captain loves tearing into officers who try to tell him how to run his base.".
Was it a Marine Corps Major? He may have been thinking Captain, O-3. I always enjoyed talking over the phone to people on a Naval base when I was an Army Captain.
It reminds me in the movie Patton where General Bradley warns General Patton that he would have relieved him of duty earlier than he was when he starts arguing for his solution while pushing against General Eisenhower's guidance to slow his advancing army. How true and how much it was goosed up for the movie I will leave to the historians. Later in Korea General MacArthur tried to push the limits of President Truman's orders and was relived of his command.
MacArthur was relived of command, that’s true. It’s actually a fascinating story of what led up to it, which was a bunch of different factors. Truman personally didn’t like MacArthur. Then when you add in all the times MacArthur went rogue, both in exceeding authority on the ground, such as pushing above the 38th parallel, and also speaking in the press and in official capacity and undermining Truman.
Truman sent word that he was to be relieved, and MacArthur firmly believed in the constitution and the ultimate authority of a civilian commander in chief. That’s what the Republic was founded on back in Washington’s day. So MacArthur graciously accepted his relief and handed it to Ridgeway and got out of the way. Different times, different way of thinking.
But what if MacArthur would have refused to step down? What then? What if he would’ve continued to move into North Korea and take the fight north again after retaking Seoul the second time? What would Truman have done then? I honestly think he would’ve had to rescind the order, or perhaps Bradley had enough pull among the officer corps in the Far East to have been able to stop MacArthur?
After studying the peaceful transfer of power this past year, which only works if the ones in power agree to let go, this combatant commander-President relationship is similar in the fact that it only works because the commander allows it to work. Eventually, someday, the commander might just say no and then we’ve got a serious problem.
I think our democracy is so fragile and it’s amazing it’s all worked out so far. It won’t take much to upset the power dynamic. I’m open to changing my mind on that, perhaps the Republic is stronger than I think and not so easy for a single powerful man to disrupt?
That would almost certainly be rapidly followed by GEN Schwarzkopf deciding he needed to retire and spend more time with his family, right away.
GOs definitely don’t have impunity. They can say no, once, then they either earned another chance to say no if they were absolutely correct, or a quick trip to their next career if there is a bit of doubt-and their replacement will be happy to follow lawful orders. I’ve probably worked at similar staff levels as you have and it’s amazing the things that go on behind the scenes with these men and women who do have failings and doubts.
I agree that it is highly unlikely a single General would ever say no to a President, and then ignore DC and just do whatever mission set he wanted to do. But what if that General had the backing of everyone in uniform, to include the JCS?
We seen Milley basically despise Trump publicly. What if in the future, a large group of Generals completely disagree with the military policy set forth by an unpopular President? It just seems like the fabric of this country keeps unraveling as we go along, to the point that the norms we have always taken for granted might not always be followed in the future, such as civilian control of the military?
Anyway, yes, I’ve seen some amazing things in my 30 years of active duty/contractor career. The stories I could tell.
Is this legal? Shot by your own men? Is that what they mean by friendly fire? Is that why so many soldiers, sadly, choose suicide? Terrible.
No that's not "friendly fire" which is what happens by mistake. Refusal to follow an order (for whatever reason) can result in the deaths of many more on your side. Its rare but it happens.
My father was in the navy during WW2. The first time his ship was attacked by Japanese planes and he remarked to someone on his gun crew that the pistols carried by the officers were useless against enemy aircraft. Then the petty officer in charge told him the pistols they carried were to make sure you followed your orders.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
